19:58:34 2003-general-||||||||| Admin: Dan_E just PLFed into this chatroom
20:02:27 2003-general-||||||||| PAC Rat just PLFed into this chatroom
20:02:55 2003-general-PAC Rat: Afternoon all
20:02:57 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Howdy
20:03:05 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Kinda empty here
20:03:33 2003-general-PAC Rat: Sure looks that way
20:03:48 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: By the looks of things, only a few stopped by today
20:03:52 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I was even late
20:04:14 2003-general-PAC Rat: I just got out of the office
20:04:38 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: What time zone you in?
20:04:55 2003-general-PAC Rat: PST... up at FT Lewis
20:05:19 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: In the office on a Sunday so close to the holidays?
20:05:52 2003-general-PAC Rat: half of the shop is on leave the next 2 weeks, and I'm just pulling in the slack
20:06:37 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I see.
20:07:27 2003-general-PAC Rat: whther the personnel are there or not the mission still has to get done...
20:08:15 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Roger
20:08:23 2003-general-PAC Rat: and yes, My NCOIC makes sure the stuff I do getsput in a counseling...
20:09:56 2003-general-PAC Rat: just like I do for my soldiers
20:10:37 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Also good to reward positive behavior
20:11:56 2003-general-PAC Rat: that;'s what I mean CSM.. If it's not on a 4856, good or bad behavior, I can't prove it... so when it comes time to say My PFC Deserves a waiver for SPC, I caan back it up..
20:12:28 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Sure thing, that helps when fighting for your troops.
20:14:03 2003-general-||||||||| JoeCav just PLFed into this chatroom
20:14:31 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Greetings JoeCav
20:14:47 2003-general-JoeCav: Hey hows it goin CSM
20:15:14 2003-general-PAC Rat: Afternoon JoeCav
20:15:30 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Going well, just a bit slow here today
20:17:13 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Today our topic was to be counseling. Pac Rat and I were discussing some ways he uses counseling
20:19:37 2003-general-PAC Rat: yes, I counsel for pretty much everything.. I try to keep it to once a month, but if a soldier goes beyond their normal duties, I make a special one for them
20:20:41 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Many think of counseling in the negative sense, seldom used for congratulatory means
20:22:26 2003-general-PAC Rat: well I forget things, and I might forget that one thing that PFC Snuffy did 6 months ago that would show he's ready for promotion, or that would get the soldier what they deserved when they left the unit
20:23:23 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Many just include those items during monthly counselings
20:23:42 2003-general-PAC Rat: or the opposite, those things that he needs to improve upon prior to being ready for advancement
20:23:56 2003-general-||||||||| gthe just PLFed into this chatroom
20:24:08 2003-general-gthe: Aloha
20:24:32 2003-general-PAC Rat: that's what I try to do too, but if it is above the bar, I do an event oriented...
20:24:41 2003-general-PAC Rat: Moring SSG T
20:24:45 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Hey Gregg
20:24:59 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: That is what it is all about
20:25:11 2003-general-gthe: how are we doing?
20:25:47 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Not too well...a small turnout
20:26:24 2003-general-gthe: i've been in and out for the last 2 hrs & there were a couple
20:26:53 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Yeah, I saw in the archive
20:27:09 2003-general-gthe: So jsut talking about different instances for counseling or what?
20:28:16 2003-general-gthe: I like the idea of counseling on a reg basis, except that's the only time some folks do it
20:28:19 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Basically, no format
20:29:29 2003-general-PAC Rat: When I counsel for my soldiers thatdo something hot, It lets them know that I acknowledged what they did, and actually give half a d*mn
20:30:34 2003-general-gthe: Roger that! I always tried to counsel in a positive way when a soldier accomplished something
20:31:07 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Where do you prefer to counsel?
20:31:35 2003-general-gthe: Depends on the situation
20:32:10 2003-general-gthe: Generally in a neutral place. Not their room or my office
20:32:18 2003-general-PAC Rat: General developmental, and event-oriented ,I pull them back into the confrence room, normaly 1400 or so
20:32:47 2003-general-gthe: Conference room was one that I used quite often
20:33:43 2003-general-PAC Rat: or outside at the break area, away from the building if the weather is nice.
20:33:59 2003-general-gthe: I tried to have a junior nco present occassionally for learning purposes
20:34:04 2003-general-PAC Rat: (rarely this time of year)
20:34:07 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Motor pool or in the field?
20:34:23 2003-general-gthe: With the soldier knowing in advance of course
20:34:33 2003-general-gthe: I have counseled in the field
20:34:55 2003-general-gthe: I don't prefer the motorpoolo. To many things going on
20:35:45 2003-general-gthe: That time should be focused on that Soldier
20:35:53 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: What if you work in the motor pool? 
20:35:58 2003-general-PAC Rat: well if the counseling is based off of something from there, I will take them down to the mp and show them, and then have them 
20:36:46 2003-general-gthe: Roger, understand working in the motorpool, but all the more reason not to do it there
20:37:07 2003-general-gthe: I don't work in the conference room
20:37:39 2003-general-PAC Rat: well if someone works there and needs to improve on something there, then shouldn't it be right there so you can show them the proper procedure?
20:38:02 2003-general-gthe: I have always tried to ensure that counseling sessions were preplanned and scheduled so that I and the Soldier could be as prepared as possible
20:38:03 2003-general-PAC Rat: I have all that I am referencing right there (love a PAC with laptops)
20:38:15 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Its a long way to the conference room from the motor pool
20:38:35 2003-general-gthe: Roger that
20:39:07 2003-general-PAC Rat: unfortunately, the unit I'm in doesnt have a MP, or an armsroom...
20:39:29 2003-general-gthe: Counseling like other training evemts should be planned and scheduled (Trainnig schedule)
20:39:46 2003-general-PAC Rat: thursdayas 1400
20:40:18 2003-general-PAC Rat: 4 soldiers, in section = 1 a week
20:40:33 2003-general-gthe: I tried to spread mine out so that I counseled only perhaps 1 or 2 soldiers a week
20:40:45 2003-general-gthe: 1 a week Roger that
20:41:37 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Thursday afternoons work well, hooah
20:42:02 2003-general-gthe: I dont see very many squadleaders/section chiefs teaching their lowere enlisted about or how to counsel
20:42:26 2003-general-PAC Rat: Well, here is not much else between SGTs Time and end of day, so
20:42:51 2003-general-gthe: when I was on the line other sgt/e5's not my soldiers would ask me to sit in on sessions like I allowed mine to do
20:42:59 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Junior enlisted, there are now enlisted that are "lower" anything
20:43:38 2003-general-PAC Rat: when I got here my NCOIC said you will be incharge of these soldiers, you will counsel them, he then showed me how to counsel them (his way) and then over the next coupla weeks sat in with me until I got it down.
20:44:08 2003-general-gthe: it got to the point where I would have a room of SPC and sgts there goign over counseli9ng sessions without really doing a counseling
20:44:41 2003-general-gthe: roger that junior enlisted
20:45:08 2003-general-gthe: I have even run counseling classes like that for fellow SSGs
20:46:02 2003-general-gthe: Is a follow up always necessary?
20:46:50 2003-general-PAC Rat: yes, but does it have to be in writing, not always
20:47:40 2003-general-gthe: So then youd say that verbal counselings are as important as written?
20:48:49 2003-general-PAC Rat: yes, because a verbal is a more immediate, "On-the-spot" indicator of an adjustment that needs to be made
20:49:06 2003-general-gthe: Roger that
20:49:24 2003-general-PAC Rat: and depending on how the soldier is approached with that, they will never forget..
20:49:30 2003-general-gthe: What about at the senior ranks?
20:49:57 2003-general-PAC Rat: usually, in my area, I do a hands on, talk through of what the procedure is , and then have them run the drill repeatedly
20:50:17 2003-general-PAC Rat: you mean, across, or up and down?
20:50:29 2003-general-gthe: CSM to 1SG, 1SG to plt sgt
20:50:59 2003-general-gthe: Those people aren't usually in the rating chain
20:51:24 2003-general-gthe: they are definitely in the responsibility chain though
20:52:27 2003-general-PAC Rat: if I was a PSG and my 1SG wasn't letting me know how I was olding up my part of the Company's METL, I'd be asking serious questions
20:52:39 2003-general-PAC Rat: olding holding
20:53:05 2003-general-gthe: i've caught several of my own mistakes
20:53:41 2003-general-gthe: Would they be all verbal or would you expect written as well
20:54:43 2003-general-PAC Rat: Both.. how am I doing my job, not just as aPSG, but more importantly (esp from 1SG) ads a mentor, and trainer of soldiers
20:55:09 2003-general-gthe: Agree
20:55:45 2003-general-PAC Rat: you can guess how mmuch input a 1SG has on his PSGs NCOER.. even though he's not technically rater/ Sr Rater
20:55:50 2003-general-gthe: How about it CSM do you feel the need to counel 1SGs or SFC's occaissionally?
20:55:51 2003-general-||||||||| Nightmare03N just PLFed into this chatroom
20:56:11 2003-general-gthe: Aloha nightmare
20:56:37 2003-general-Nightmare03N: greetings from lower alabama
20:56:41 2003-general-PAC Rat: esp in the areas of how the 1SG/ SFC develops his NCOs...
20:57:05 2003-general-gthe: how's the weather?
20:57:09 2003-general-PAC Rat: afternoon Nightmare
20:57:26 2003-general-Nightmare03N: 50s and clear
20:57:27 2003-general-gthe: roger, agree PAC RAT
20:58:14 2003-general-gthe: We were just dicussing places to counsel, times to counsel 
20:58:14 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I think 1SGs and CSMs need counseling, yes
20:58:46 2003-general-gthe: and importance of verbal as well as written counseling
20:59:25 2003-general-gthe: Does the senior counseling tend to be more verbal?
21:00:07 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I once had a commander tell me that every time he was speaking to me he was counseling me! 
21:00:16 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I have seen less and less the higher up I go.
21:01:59 2003-general-gthe: What is your take on being directed to counsel someone for an act that say the 1sg witnessed or the plt sgt but they want you to do the counseling
21:02:34 2003-general-PAC Rat: get a sworn statement
21:03:02 2003-general-Nightmare03N: that in itself can be just a PD tool they use
21:03:18 2003-general-PAC Rat: otherwise it could bite you in the ass
21:03:35 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Is it your soldier? I am guil;ty of it, so I guess I would ghave to say I somewhat agreee with it. Both learn a lesson (soldioer and supervisor).
21:04:20 2003-general-Nightmare03N: I have directed soldiers to do counseling on certain things to see how they handle the situation.
21:04:46 2003-general-PAC Rat: get a sworn statement
21:04:50 2003-general-gthe: roger I have to for prof dev
21:05:12 2003-general-gthe: never because of diciplinary though
21:05:24 2003-general-gthe: I like the sworn statement
21:05:51 2003-general-gthe: amazing how many think hust writing on a plain piece of paper and signing is good enough though
21:06:11 2003-general-PAC Rat: I have seen an E-5 go down because they were told to counsel a soldier for something that the NCOIC said the joe did, E-5 counseled, ART 15 started to go through E-7 said he never ordered that counseling
21:06:53 2003-general-Nightmare03N: that is what the plan of action is for...I didn't quite know what to think of the new 4856, but have learned to use it as a great tool.
21:07:38 2003-general-gthe: have the same abilities on the new one as the old one
21:08:15 2003-general-gthe: it's just spelled out clearer in specified areas, and people still can't do it
21:08:38 2003-general-Nightmare03N: yeah, but it is easier for the counselee to understand with the way it is presented
21:08:51 2003-general-gthe: brings a thought to mind. do we spend enough time counseling?
21:09:14 2003-general-gthe: preparing, planning and actually doing?
21:09:49 2003-general-gthe: teaching our Soldiers how they should get and be prepared for their counseling sessions?
21:09:52 2003-general-Nightmare03N: maybe not documenting the counseling, but plenty of verbal
21:10:37 2003-general-gthe: Of course teaching how to counsel, but if you're already counseling appropriately than the soldier is learning
21:11:36 2003-general-PAC Rat: that's an idea.. show the pperson I'm counselling, especially on the monthly ones, what I do to get ready to counsel them
21:12:06 2003-general-Nightmare03N: I myself wear out the formflow on my computer...soldiers were a little put off by it at first, but the counseling packet got one of my soldiers promoted ahead of another and they see the reasoning now
21:12:35 2003-general-Nightmare03N: that is a great idea....show the whole process
21:12:55 2003-general-gthe: and have them come prepared. with accomplishments, goals achieved not achieved etc
21:13:08 2003-general-Nightmare03N: many of my peers still do not do it properly
21:13:39 2003-general-gthe: I always tell them the session will a=only be as good and productive as they help me make it
21:14:02 2003-general-gthe: Yes, far to many don't counsel properly
21:14:11 2003-general-PAC Rat: good idea
21:14:39 2003-general-gthe: in the leadership zone I will once again start a counseling thread
21:14:56 2003-general-gthe: watch for it and add to it
21:15:29 2003-general-PAC Rat: will do
21:15:34 2003-general-gthe: the idea will be to discuss (eventually) every aspect of counseling
21:16:09 2003-general-gthe: discuss the form, how to, why to, why not to etc
21:17:03 2003-general-PAC Rat: I have a sit.. csoldier being seperated(has orders), starts being real disrespectful to everyone about everything, I've asked the chain to put a shined ppiece of leather to her 4th point oof contact, but nada, how would you handle?
21:17:40 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Is it normal separation or chapter?
21:18:30 2003-general-PAC Rat: chapter (personality disorder) my old unit this soldier would find way to 30 and 30
21:19:04 2003-general-gthe: remind them that futher charges could slow down the separation
21:19:19 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: First, if she has a disorder, it could be mediaclly related, not indiscipline.
21:19:24 2003-general-PAC Rat: basically, command is of the opinion, she has orders, she'll be gone soon enough... 
21:19:54 2003-general-gthe: to bad, I ahte it when they do that
21:20:21 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Next, a very personal, sustained corrective training session that clearly indicates your expectation of following orders, supervised by yourself could help.
21:20:32 2003-general-PAC Rat: but this soldier isn't showing up for accountabillity, cussing out other soldiers... 
21:21:02 2003-general-gthe: not medically realted then
21:21:09 2003-general-PAC Rat: it's CSM it's more of a chapter where she convinced somone thnot to give her a misconduct
21:21:36 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Go get her. Lock her heels. Have someone with more authority (PSG, 1SG, CSM) assist. If she gets out of hand, let the MPs cuff her and take her to the station.
21:22:05 2003-general-gthe: to bad, i hate it when they do that (command)
21:22:36 2003-general-gthe: ROGER THAT, further charges could slow the separation
21:23:13 2003-general-Nightmare03N: inform this soldier that the misconduct can still happen...do it in front of the command team to make sure all are on the same sheet of music and proceed witht the corrective training
21:23:22 2003-general-PAC Rat: granted, this a person, that I don't want in this unit, but while she's still here, IMHO she still needs to follow the rules
21:24:02 2003-general-Nightmare03N: until she is stationed at fort livingroom...she still is a soldier
21:24:24 2003-general-PAC Rat: sounds like I need to kick it further up the chain, since SFC, 1SG. CSm donjust want her gone
21:24:26 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Dont take it personal, just words of advice.
21:25:15 2003-general-PAC Rat: they just want her gone.. but it's disrupting my section's workflow
21:25:16 2003-general-gthe: She is setting a bad example for others, which is probably where she got it from
21:25:33 2003-general-gthe: watching others
21:26:37 2003-general-gthe: Do the appropriate counseling and request an AR 15. 
21:27:18 2003-general-PAC Rat: that's my point... my junior enlisted see this, and start thinking, if she can get away with that.... 
21:27:43 2003-general-PAC Rat: I have and it's been shot down for the sake of her just being gone
21:28:34 2003-general-gthe: I hate it when they do that
21:29:24 2003-general-gthe: I too have seen that
21:29:49 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: gotta go, c-ya
21:29:53 2003-general-||||||||| Admin: Dan_E just logged off.
21:30:07 2003-general-gthe: ok gotta go for now. watch for the counseling thread to pop up in the leadership zone
21:30:37 2003-general-gthe: Thanks for joining the chat together we'll make them better along with our corps