Sat Dec 6 20:03:59 2003-general-lanemeister: yes they are
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Sun Dec 7 01:14:24 2003-general-jane: hi
Sun Dec 7 01:14:46 2003-general-jane: hello
Sun Dec 7 01:15:15 2003-general-jane: anyone here, gthe
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Sun Dec 7 02:36:42 2003-general-lanemeister: anybody home?
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Sun Dec 7 03:37:42 2003-general-mortarman20:
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Sun Dec 7 03:43:14 2003-general-strykerdoc: whats goin on men
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Sun Dec 7 03:43:55 2003-general-strykerdoc: anything interesting goin on in here
Sun Dec 7 03:44:07 2003-general-strykerdoc:
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Sun Dec 7 03:59:10 2003-general-jmpboot: empty?
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Sun Dec 7 04:09:28 2003-general-Featherweight: Anybody out there?
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Sun Dec 7 06:56:46 2003-general-PAC Rat: good evening
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Sun Dec 7 17:35:49 2003-general-tash: hi
Sun Dec 7 17:36:15 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Howdy
Sun Dec 7 17:37:29 2003-general-tash: do you know where i can go to get info on rack building?
Sun Dec 7 17:37:30 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Still there?
Sun Dec 7 17:37:53 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Sure, you mean for aligning your ribbons?
Sun Dec 7 17:37:54 2003-general-tash: yes
Sun Dec 7 17:38:08 2003-general-tash: yes
Sun Dec 7 17:38:43 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: On our website look on the very left row of menus and scroll down to the last one. The Rackbuilder link is the 2nd link.
Sun Dec 7 17:38:44 2003-general-||||||||| expmed just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 17:39:08 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Greetings expmed
Sun Dec 7 17:39:14 2003-general-tash: ok
Sun Dec 7 17:39:40 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Hope that helps.
Sun Dec 7 17:39:47 2003-general-expmed: How do I get to the NCOER site?
Sun Dec 7 17:39:55 2003-general-tash: lets see
Sun Dec 7 17:40:42 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Which ncoer site in particular? You can try www.ncoer.com, or the one here in the Cybrarian
Sun Dec 7 17:40:58 2003-general-expmed: Hello
Sun Dec 7 17:41:28 2003-general-expmed: That's the one. Just looking for references. Thanks
Sun Dec 7 17:41:41 2003-general-tash: when you say our site what do you mean?
Sun Dec 7 17:41:41 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Welcome
Sun Dec 7 17:41:58 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Our site is www.Squad-leader.com, the site you are on now.
Sun Dec 7 17:42:18 2003-general-expmed: Hey, been a while since 3-12 Baumholder.
Sun Dec 7 17:42:32 2003-general-tash: those links are forums
Sun Dec 7 17:42:38 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Yeah, roger. Who is that?
Sun Dec 7 17:42:48 2003-general-expmed: This is Pena, the medic.
Sun Dec 7 17:43:04 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: try: "http://www.squad-leader.com/cgi-bin/mods/showhtml/showhtml.pl?url=www.squad-leader.com/rack.shtml"
Sun Dec 7 17:43:27 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: SGT Pena, yeah, right. You must be a SFC by now, right?
Sun Dec 7 17:43:50 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: or just: http://www.squad-leader.com/rack.shtml
Sun Dec 7 17:44:10 2003-general-expmed: That's right. Getting my NCOER complete for that E-8 board. Got to do a CTR one.
Sun Dec 7 17:44:34 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Great, good luck to ya.
Sun Dec 7 17:44:39 2003-general-expmed: My first look in the promary
Sun Dec 7 17:44:44 2003-general-expmed: primary
Sun Dec 7 17:45:08 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: That is a good time, hope yu are serving in a tough job?
Sun Dec 7 17:45:12 2003-general-tash: thx Dan, finally got it
Sun Dec 7 17:45:29 2003-general-expmed: Any Key s/r bullets other than "Promote now"?
Sun Dec 7 17:46:03 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Promote ahead of peers or Must Promote now are pretty strong
Sun Dec 7 17:46:12 2003-general-expmed: I'm a platoon sergeant here at 1st CAV, Div Cav 1-7 "Garryowen"
Sun Dec 7 17:46:15 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Great tash, good luck
Sun Dec 7 17:46:22 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: no %&#%?
Sun Dec 7 17:46:33 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I did not know you were here at hood.
Sun Dec 7 17:47:20 2003-general-expmed: Are your here also?
Sun Dec 7 17:47:24 2003-general-expmed: Unit?
Sun Dec 7 17:48:02 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Yeah, I am the COSCOM CSM. I guess you dont go down Support Ave very often?
Sun Dec 7 17:48:51 2003-general-expmed: Guess, I need to. Maybe I can stop by soon if you got time.
Sun Dec 7 17:49:30 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Yeah, but hurry. We will beat you guys to IZ by a few months. I leave soon.
Sun Dec 7 17:50:58 2003-general-expmed: I'll do that. Thanks for you help got to get back to work.
Sun Dec 7 17:51:37 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Hooah
Sun Dec 7 17:51:44 2003-general-||||||||| expmed just logged off.
Sun Dec 7 17:57:54 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: ..
Sun Dec 7 18:05:08 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: ..
Sun Dec 7 18:06:53 2003-general-||||||||| PAC Rat just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 18:08:33 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Howdyt
Sun Dec 7 18:08:41 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Oops, meant Howdy
Sun Dec 7 18:08:57 2003-general-PAC Rat: Good Morning
Sun Dec 7 18:09:18 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: What brings you into chat room today?
Sun Dec 7 18:09:58 2003-general-PAC Rat: I was checing to see if there was some traffic, and if there was a topic being discussed.
Sun Dec 7 18:10:34 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: So far it has been a bit slow today. In the last 30-40 minutes, you are only the 5th visitor.
Sun Dec 7 18:11:12 2003-general-PAC Rat: some how I believe that...
Sun Dec 7 18:11:55 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Right now looks like there are 20 people logged into the site, but only us 2 in chatroom
Sun Dec 7 18:12:53 2003-general-PAC Rat: question then would be, how to lure them in, and to get a free exchange of ideas and knowledge going?
Sun Dec 7 18:13:45 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Roger, that is the $2 question the PMs and I struggle with. Most folks come here to lurk, and only take, never give back.
Sun Dec 7 18:15:00 2003-general-||||||||| Cajun MP just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 18:15:14 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Greeting Cajun
Sun Dec 7 18:15:37 2003-general-Cajun MP: greetings
Sun Dec 7 18:15:39 2003-general-PAC Rat: ncopd? using tools and resources available to help a leader become more proficient? or bringing the topics from the board in, like the lead on counseling...
Sun Dec 7 18:15:46 2003-general-Cajun MP: how is everyone today?
Sun Dec 7 18:16:02 2003-general-PAC Rat: Morning Caj
Sun Dec 7 18:16:14 2003-general-Cajun MP: morning PAC
Sun Dec 7 18:16:18 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Yeah, roger. The tough part is catching folks online at the same time with the same interest
Sun Dec 7 18:16:24 2003-general-PAC Rat: still working the coffee Cajun, you?
Sun Dec 7 18:17:02 2003-general-Cajun MP: just getting up from a long night last night
Sun Dec 7 18:17:06 2003-general-Cajun MP: did a little drinking
Sun Dec 7 18:17:33 2003-general-Cajun MP: watching some football
Sun Dec 7 18:17:44 2003-general-PAC Rat: call it "Situational Leading" or something vague that picks th attention up, and post a note thaat there will be a chat on the discussion at x00 hours on such a day..
Sun Dec 7 18:18:05 2003-general-PAC Rat: No Caj, just live on the stuff that's all
Sun Dec 7 18:18:34 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Sure, that is how we normally do it. Just got to get the team working on it.
Sun Dec 7 18:18:58 2003-general-Cajun MP: i hear that
Sun Dec 7 18:20:17 2003-general-Cajun MP: Does anyone watch college football in here?
Sun Dec 7 18:20:25 2003-general-PAC Rat: transactional interactions, always tough to get people out of the wood work.
Sun Dec 7 18:21:30 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Lets try a broadcast message. :
Sun Dec 7 18:21:49 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: KState did a number on OU last night. Hooah
Sun Dec 7 18:22:21 2003-general-PAC Rat: well as long as Michigan wins the Rose Bowl, I don't care about the rest of the games
Sun Dec 7 18:22:35 2003-general-Cajun MP: yeah they really screwed up the BCS...but i loved it. Im a LSU fan
Sun Dec 7 18:22:58 2003-general-Cajun MP: I hope LSU and USC are in the Sugar Bowl
Sun Dec 7 18:24:33 2003-general-PAC Rat: how about bringing some of the more heated archive discussion to the chat room?
Sun Dec 7 18:25:29 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Without seting a date/time and advertising in advance, it will not be well attended.
Sun Dec 7 18:25:42 2003-general-Cajun MP: yeah like the gold teeth one
Sun Dec 7 18:25:49 2003-general-Cajun MP: that one got alot of attention
Sun Dec 7 18:27:47 2003-general-PAC Rat: well, there's the forums, the message system that pops up "You have a message when you log on the site" . With any training event resources need to be schedule in advance, but I think it could be abbrievitated.. like say 2 -3 weeks instead of a 6 week scv
Sun Dec 7 18:28:23 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: We usually give a 5-7 days notice.
Sun Dec 7 18:28:30 2003-general-PAC Rat: 6 week schedule, and bring to the 1st one with 2-3 ideas for future knowledge sharing events
Sun Dec 7 18:29:06 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: There is a calendar feature for scheduling, no one was interested at this point.
Sun Dec 7 18:30:31 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Also, think the time difference. There is not really a god time for everyone. We had a regular Sunday chat, every Sunday, at about 1400 EST.
Sun Dec 7 18:30:34 2003-general-PAC Rat: how about how to impliment the CSA's guidance of warrior ethos in to day to day training of soldiers
Sun Dec 7 18:31:21 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Ya'll just gotta pick the topics and a moderator, I can faciltate the rest
Sun Dec 7 18:31:32 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Plus a date/time
Sun Dec 7 18:32:52 2003-general-PAC Rat: Why did the sunday 1400 go away?
Sun Dec 7 18:33:47 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Before the war started, usage went waay down. It got stalled. We have begun picking up again and now the interest has returned.
Sun Dec 7 18:35:35 2003-general-PAC Rat: how would you counsel a (fill in the blank) is always a good topic
Sun Dec 7 18:36:10 2003-general-||||||||| LeeAnn just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 18:36:23 2003-general-LeeAnn: omg there's people in here hi all
Sun Dec 7 18:36:26 2003-general-PAC Rat: a discussion on the importance of a leaders book
Sun Dec 7 18:36:38 2003-general-PAC Rat: Good morning
Sun Dec 7 18:36:41 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Figuring out topics are pretty tough considering the varied audience we had. Put focusing on a specfic item helped brin gin the crowd
Sun Dec 7 18:36:47 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Hi LeeAnn, greetings
Sun Dec 7 18:37:22 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Yup, some of us actually use this chat room!
Sun Dec 7 18:37:48 2003-general-PAC Rat: Well, CSm, what are some of the more lively topics , from posting #'s wise that you've had, and haven't been beat to death?
Sun Dec 7 18:37:50 2003-general-LeeAnn: how are you all
Sun Dec 7 18:38:14 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Sheesh, there are a couple of items that Always come up
Sun Dec 7 18:38:30 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I am doing fine myslef, LeeAnn. And you?
Sun Dec 7 18:39:03 2003-general-LeeAnn: good good just put my son to bed so its time for some me time
Sun Dec 7 18:39:41 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Bedtime or nap? Where you logging in from?
Sun Dec 7 18:40:05 2003-general-LeeAnn: im in Italy and its bed time for him its 20 to 8 pm
Sun Dec 7 18:40:45 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: PAC, one that always happens is after any Centralized Board results are released....
Sun Dec 7 18:41:39 2003-general-PAC Rat: I can see this one coming...
Sun Dec 7 18:41:59 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I find it best when the collective group come up with the ideas, I try not to influence the free-flowing exchage of ideas, just capture the ideas when it shows interest
Sun Dec 7 18:42:30 2003-general-PAC Rat: well, we have to have one to kickstart it all..
Sun Dec 7 18:43:11 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: CSAs recommendation to do away with the Class A uniform?
Sun Dec 7 18:43:13 2003-general-PAC Rat: and once people get in here, and exchange ideas, then the ball will keep rolling itself
Sun Dec 7 18:44:08 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Gotta get'em in first Easier said then done. I know I keep harpin on it, but 6 years I still havent figured out how yet.
Sun Dec 7 18:44:35 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: 15 online, only 3 of us here.
Sun Dec 7 18:45:03 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: LeeAnn, what are your thoughts?
Sun Dec 7 18:45:20 2003-general-LeeAnn: i always check to see if anyone is in here when I come to the site so far this is only the second time with people actually in here
Sun Dec 7 18:45:50 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: How long you been looking?
Sun Dec 7 18:46:03 2003-general-LeeAnn: id say about a month now
Sun Dec 7 18:46:22 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Gotcha
Sun Dec 7 18:46:25 2003-general-PAC Rat: do you have Ideas on bringing in the masses?
Sun Dec 7 18:46:31 2003-general-LeeAnn: my hubby used to use this site often so he told me about it and its helped alot getting opinions and find regs etc
Sun Dec 7 18:46:40 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: PAC, what topic you thinking of?
Sun Dec 7 18:47:02 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Word of mouth is about the only way folks hear of us.
Sun Dec 7 18:47:39 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: 5 Articles, 6 years, 1 Pioneer Award, and people still come up to me and tell me about "this new site" <laugh>
Sun Dec 7 18:48:06 2003-general-LeeAnn: haha thats too funny
Sun Dec 7 18:48:19 2003-general-PAC Rat: I still think an online discussion on how would you counsel, or how to implement into training the CSA's vision of Warrior ethos would be a good start...
Sun Dec 7 18:48:28 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Yeah, I know.
Sun Dec 7 18:48:43 2003-general-LeeAnn: i agree
Sun Dec 7 18:48:48 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: We try to change and keep up with the goings on in the Army, that is why our diversity is so good.
Sun Dec 7 18:49:06 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: But some folks are afraid to actually participate, they just rather "watch." Gotta figure
Sun Dec 7 18:49:24 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: out how to get them more invloved. Controversy seems to work, but...
Sun Dec 7 18:49:34 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: then we end up having the Jerry Spinger feel.
Sun Dec 7 18:49:38 2003-general-PAC Rat: the first topic would be well suited as a "Virtual" large scale SGL discussion
Sun Dec 7 18:50:09 2003-general-LeeAnn: bleh thats not fun, im pretty blunt for a female that why me and most army guys get along sad but true
Sun Dec 7 18:50:42 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: We have had some good topics, but they usually play out pretty fast. You gotta get a "hook" to get them interested in coming in on a set day, set time
Sun Dec 7 18:51:11 2003-general-LeeAnn: women in combat had alot of input the last i saw lol
Sun Dec 7 18:51:50 2003-general-PAC Rat: soldiers correcting up the chain?
Sun Dec 7 18:51:54 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Okay, it is there.
Sun Dec 7 18:53:29 2003-general-PAC Rat: awards, and promotions?
Sun Dec 7 18:53:38 2003-general-LeeAnn: thats a good one pac we usually get our asses chewed if we did that in my unit so um ya
Sun Dec 7 18:53:48 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Good topic
Sun Dec 7 18:54:00 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Each one could be a chat topiic
Sun Dec 7 18:54:03 2003-general-LeeAnn: promo now thats a sore subject
Sun Dec 7 18:54:45 2003-general-PAC Rat: I reemeber the firebrand about wear of OLC's.. of PCS and RET awards... Promo.. what does it really take, and how to do it?
Sun Dec 7 18:54:53 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: How to get Promoted would be good
Sun Dec 7 18:55:46 2003-general-PAC Rat: not the basic 3355 but how to tell a soldier is really ready..
Sun Dec 7 18:55:46 2003-general-LeeAnn: ive noticed that how things are done in europe verses the states are very different
Sun Dec 7 18:55:58 2003-general-LeeAnn: especially in promo and awards
Sun Dec 7 18:56:28 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Yeah, advice from others kind of thing.
Sun Dec 7 18:57:17 2003-general-PAC Rat: all the way from when you get them as your soldier to going in the board, and after.
Sun Dec 7 18:57:21 2003-general-LeeAnn: thats a good one here is a question how long is too long before going to a promo board
Sun Dec 7 18:57:29 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: TTPs
Sun Dec 7 18:58:37 2003-general-LeeAnn: Heres a scenario I have SPC been in 4 yrs last month and still not promoted since I got him 3 months ago
Sun Dec 7 18:58:56 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Why? In a P status?
Sun Dec 7 18:59:16 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Does he show potential?
Sun Dec 7 18:59:17 2003-general-LeeAnn: nope not even P status at all
Sun Dec 7 18:59:38 2003-general-PAC Rat: have you pulledhim aside about it?
Sun Dec 7 18:59:55 2003-general-LeeAnn: so I did an eval he knows his job very well has problems with accountability of equip, and there are also some respect issues etc
Sun Dec 7 19:00:11 2003-general-PAC Rat: what can you do as his leader to help grow?
Sun Dec 7 19:00:20 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: The 1st time a soldier gets in the PZ, he should be counseled on 4856 why he is not going to the board...
Sun Dec 7 19:00:21 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: then each month after.
Sun Dec 7 19:00:38 2003-general-LeeAnn: but in 90 days showed great improvement in alot of areas but at the same time still disrespectful to certain NCO's and never on time for anything!
Sun Dec 7 19:00:52 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: After a few times of this and no progress, Bar the soldier for failing to progress.
Sun Dec 7 19:01:31 2003-general-PAC Rat: Can he handle the tasks, and just not good at the time-managment thing?
Sun Dec 7 19:01:41 2003-general-LeeAnn: well i talked to the section NCO about it and they would just rather pass him off since he is now PCSing. So joe leaves the unit with a bad taste in his mouth ...
Sun Dec 7 19:02:35 2003-general-LeeAnn: lets just say time management wasnt the issue it was more like laziness but at the same time he has gotten commendables on every CIP etc
Sun Dec 7 19:03:08 2003-general-LeeAnn: it just took a lot of persistence on my part as well as the NCO before me I suppose
Sun Dec 7 19:03:47 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: The average time it takes a soldier to go to the board is /- 3 years. He is behind his peers. At about 4 years, a commissioned officer is a CPT getting ready to be your CO.
Sun Dec 7 19:04:01 2003-general-PAC Rat: mmm.. shorten his suspenses, and take his time away for wasting yours
Sun Dec 7 19:04:26 2003-general-PAC Rat: I know I'm behind the power curve, CSM..
Sun Dec 7 19:04:29 2003-general-LeeAnn: ok here is another good one
Sun Dec 7 19:04:57 2003-general-LeeAnn: i have soldier now she has a goal of getting NCO by her second yr in the army
Sun Dec 7 19:05:26 2003-general-LeeAnn: so i counseled her on what she had to do to achieve that goal.
Sun Dec 7 19:05:31 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Good goal....
Sun Dec 7 19:05:36 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Is it attainable tho?
Sun Dec 7 19:05:39 2003-general-||||||||| SGTSpoon just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 19:05:52 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Greetings Spoon
Sun Dec 7 19:05:58 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Thaths 4
Sun Dec 7 19:06:11 2003-general-PAC Rat: al you can do is set her up for sucess.. put her into situations where she has to take chaarge and think on her feet
Sun Dec 7 19:06:16 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Thank you ...hello all
Sun Dec 7 19:06:30 2003-general-LeeAnn: she was currently in secondary zone anywho so she had a rough month and got two bad counselings from the 1SG and two from the section NCO
Sun Dec 7 19:06:36 2003-general-LeeAnn: hi there
Sun Dec 7 19:06:59 2003-general-PAC Rat: Morning SGT Spoon
Sun Dec 7 19:07:06 2003-general-LeeAnn: the ones from the 1sg were on weapon accoutnability and the one from the section nco was fcp and being late to formation
Sun Dec 7 19:07:20 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Evening here PAC Rat...20:00
Sun Dec 7 19:07:25 2003-general-LeeAnn: about this time I was pregnant and getting rdy to deliver and go on maternity leave
Sun Dec 7 19:07:54 2003-general-SGTSpoon: What's the current topic?
Sun Dec 7 19:08:00 2003-general-||||||||| devilishgrl just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 19:08:04 2003-general-LeeAnn: well while i was gone she went straight to the CSM and got to go the promo board just like that
Sun Dec 7 19:08:05 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Can a squared away soldier progress in time t o go to the SGT board with 2 years in?
Sun Dec 7 19:08:26 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Hello Develishgrl
Sun Dec 7 19:08:32 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: That is 5
Sun Dec 7 19:08:36 2003-general-LeeAnn: so im back to work and she just got pinned
Sun Dec 7 19:08:46 2003-general-LeeAnn: hi there
Sun Dec 7 19:08:51 2003-general-||||||||| Admin: Dan_E Current Topic for new arrivals Promotion System
Sun Dec 7 19:08:59 2003-general-PAC Rat: wtg CSM.
Sun Dec 7 19:09:13 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Glad to see you all
Sun Dec 7 19:09:20 2003-general-LeeAnn: see my problem was neither me nor my squadleader section sgt nore my plt sgt thought she was rdy
Sun Dec 7 19:09:51 2003-general-LeeAnn: she still had a lot to learn about both the military and her job
Sun Dec 7 19:10:16 2003-general-LeeAnn: appearantly her counseling packet disappeared and here she stands an NCO
Sun Dec 7 19:10:23 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Some soldiers can be ready...some Junior EMs I have known have demonstrated maturity and leadership potential beyond their years
Sun Dec 7 19:10:26 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I find that the SLs are pretty hard on their charges some times...
Sun Dec 7 19:10:30 2003-general-LeeAnn: no one bothered to call me about it since i had just had the baby
Sun Dec 7 19:10:59 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: ...thoughts like "well I was more squared away than he is," or ....I wqould have never got away with something like that."
Sun Dec 7 19:11:21 2003-general-PAC Rat: well at this point, mentor her throught the art of polished boot to 4th point.. and hold her to the staandards expecetd of her rank
Sun Dec 7 19:11:35 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Devlishgrl, any thoughts on this?
Sun Dec 7 19:13:01 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: ..
Sun Dec 7 19:13:07 2003-general-LeeAnn: well im just frustrated since i busted my%&#%to prove myself to make NCO and here she is just whines to the CSM and blam here she is an NCO
Sun Dec 7 19:14:38 2003-general-PAC Rat: taht does seem to be a going trend
Sun Dec 7 19:14:40 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: If NCOs dont do the right thing (counsel, mentor, coach, assist) and a soldier came to me, I would question the leaders, that is for sure. But not necessarily true for someone in SZ.
Sun Dec 7 19:14:47 2003-general-LeeAnn: so what do you guys think about MOS testing as a part of promo?
Sun Dec 7 19:15:37 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I been there, done that. TRADOC cant keep up with it, no way.
Sun Dec 7 19:16:11 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Doctrine changes at lightspeed, TRADOC chages at glacial speed.
Sun Dec 7 19:16:42 2003-general-SGTSpoon: I think MOS testing should be required, and I have often advocated doing away with longevity pay raises and bringing back pro-pay...tie it to a performance oriented MOS test of some type....
Sun Dec 7 19:16:43 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Just wait until your career hinges on taking a test that is outdated and irrelavant.
Sun Dec 7 19:16:44 2003-general-PAC Rat: well.. *coughs* if you dont know the basics of your job, as well as how it supports the basics of being a soldier, then how can you lead the most confident and compitent warfighters in today's Army?
Sun Dec 7 19:17:05 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: It was some pretty smart senior NCOs who convinced the CSA to scrap SDT for all the righht reasons
Sun Dec 7 19:18:01 2003-general-PAC Rat: i don't know the testing iss right as much as a hard look at how you do your job
Sun Dec 7 19:18:14 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: How come Majors dont take tests? Your Bn Cdr is not required to "prove" that he can take a test. So why does the NCO corps have to be put through such scrutiny?
Sun Dec 7 19:19:25 2003-general-PAC Rat: how do they do it at the seniotr level? a look at what you've done in your career, where you've been, and how well you did it?
Sun Dec 7 19:19:56 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Yes. It is all based on past performance
Sun Dec 7 19:20:12 2003-general-||||||||| GT_Bill just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 19:20:42 2003-general-LeeAnn: my screen is blank did every one log?
Sun Dec 7 19:20:44 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: IMHO, the problem is weak leaders afraid of accurate reporting. Testing, according to some, will allow those who slip through the system to be "caught."
Sun Dec 7 19:20:47 2003-general-LeeAnn: nm got it back
Sun Dec 7 19:20:54 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Greetings SGT Bill
Sun Dec 7 19:21:19 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: LeeAnn, if you dont post for a while, the screen will blank. Just hit the send button
Sun Dec 7 19:21:44 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Accurate reporting...a subject near and dear to my heart...
Sun Dec 7 19:21:50 2003-general-LeeAnn: thanks
Sun Dec 7 19:22:09 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Too many folks are afraid to say "hey, you are average."
Sun Dec 7 19:22:11 2003-general-GT_Bill: Good afternoon, just trying to read thru what I've missed
Sun Dec 7 19:22:28 2003-general-SGTSpoon: A large number of raters are afraid to tell someone they are not a "1" block. Might hurt their feelings
Sun Dec 7 19:22:28 2003-general-PAC Rat: well, if the first line leaders also counseled appropriately.. good and bad, the higher levels like 1SG and CSM would see who is ready to advance..
Sun Dec 7 19:23:15 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: The cog that keeps this machine running smooth is the SL/FFL
Sun Dec 7 19:23:40 2003-general-SGTSpoon: It's about to lead to another overhaul of the NCOER...it gets artificially inflated after a while...just like the EER did
Sun Dec 7 19:23:46 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Right on Spoon
Sun Dec 7 19:24:05 2003-general-PAC Rat: not trying to shotgun here.. but too many are trying to pad their own NCOER...
Sun Dec 7 19:24:07 2003-general-GT_Bill: I agree.
Sun Dec 7 19:24:20 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: The good news is it is transparent on inflated NCOERs....does more harm than good. The Board sees it easy
Sun Dec 7 19:24:40 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: How so on padding?
Sun Dec 7 19:25:59 2003-general-GT_Bill: too many cases of aoldiers having to "write their own NCOER because officers or others in the chain don't take the time to work on it over the course of an evaluation report period. Not Counseling, etc.
Sun Dec 7 19:26:02 2003-general-PAC Rat: by hiding soldier's issues..
Sun Dec 7 19:26:18 2003-general-SGTSpoon: I'm thinking PAC Rat may be referring to a trend I have seen in some units wherein NCOs are basically writing their own NCOERs...raters lack the skil or desire to do it themselves.
Sun Dec 7 19:26:32 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: A big problem with NCOER are 1) improperly trained rates/SR, and lack of senior NCO oversight.
Sun Dec 7 19:26:33 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Oops...Bill beat me to it
Sun Dec 7 19:26:34 2003-general-LeeAnn: isnt that the truth
Sun Dec 7 19:26:47 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Laugh. See my comments. We agree then
Sun Dec 7 19:27:02 2003-general-GT_Bill: I was reading your mind...spooky
Sun Dec 7 19:27:13 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I worry when I hear of folks "writing" their own NCOERs.
Sun Dec 7 19:27:33 2003-general-PAC Rat: yep.. and the NCO not having a devlopment bond with rater/ SR rater, to feel comfortable enought to take his/her Joe's probs up chain.
Sun Dec 7 19:27:48 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: It is tough to catch or prove, just like the nefarious "dates counseled" blocks.
Sun Dec 7 19:28:18 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: It all boils down to face-to-face counseling.
Sun Dec 7 19:28:37 2003-general-LeeAnn: im a newb when it comes to ncoer's since i just had my first one in august
Sun Dec 7 19:28:43 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Aw, c'mon now...we all know that the counseling actually happened.....right?
Sun Dec 7 19:28:51 2003-general-GT_Bill: Try working for AirForce officers in a NATO environment, there's where I had problems. Then my SR was an LTC who didn't even work close to me.
Sun Dec 7 19:28:56 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Another fact
Sun Dec 7 19:29:18 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: SGT Bill, ties to my two major problems
Sun Dec 7 19:29:20 2003-general-LeeAnn: but im a supply sgt and i always thought i would get rated by the commander but here im rated by the 1sg and my sr rater is the commander is that how its supposed to go
Sun Dec 7 19:29:37 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: LeeAnn, and soon you will be writing an ncoer on another NCO!
Sun Dec 7 19:30:16 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: The book does not define supervisor by MOS or position.
Sun Dec 7 19:30:45 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I have seen supply NCOs rated by the Supply Officer (usually XO), too.
Sun Dec 7 19:30:47 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Unfortunately...that's where some folks can slip through the cracks...a substandard performer receives no counseling...kinda hard to reflect in the NCOER..
Sun Dec 7 19:31:27 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Perfect Point!!! Goes back to counseling, or lack of.
Sun Dec 7 19:31:44 2003-general-PAC Rat: It comes down to stepping up and taking responsiblity for those you lead...
Sun Dec 7 19:32:18 2003-general-LeeAnn: well i cant complain i get couseled quarterly because i have a good 1sg but he is now clearing and im afraid of who is going to replace him but we are in a wierd situation
Sun Dec 7 19:33:01 2003-general-PAC Rat: I have been in my unit about 10 mos adn I have recieved maybe 3 counselings total, and 2 were intro counseling when I had a change of NCOs... and yes I go up chain with it.
Sun Dec 7 19:33:30 2003-general-LeeAnn: ok i now work in the S4 and im in a trans unit the HHD portion is about to transform into an FSB and take in the FSC that we currently have
Sun Dec 7 19:33:47 2003-general-GT_Bill: I could not agree more, counseling is something that has to be done if we want an NCOER system that actually works.
Sun Dec 7 19:34:04 2003-general-LeeAnn: the problem would be the FSC is currently deployed
Sun Dec 7 19:34:18 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Alas, we can only take care of our small corners of the world.
Sun Dec 7 19:34:45 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Roger...there are not only weak performers..there are weak counselors...it's a skil that must be developed just like any other...
Sun Dec 7 19:34:52 2003-general-LeeAnn: I will no longer be in the S4 and become a supply sgt for one of the companies yet i will be working for no one till april when they pick the CO and 1sg
Sun Dec 7 19:35:10 2003-general-SGTSpoon: oops...skill...that's twice..
Sun Dec 7 19:35:23 2003-general-LeeAnn: so how will this effect an ncoer
Sun Dec 7 19:35:51 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Not sure you can "teach" counseling, you have to "learn" counseling
Sun Dec 7 19:36:15 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: How will the new org affect NCOER?
Sun Dec 7 19:36:29 2003-general-LeeAnn: yes
Sun Dec 7 19:36:43 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Leeann...if teh rater has not counseled a substandard perfermor throughout the rated period, it's hard to document substandard performance on an NCOER///the rater does not have a leg to stand on
Sun Dec 7 19:36:55 2003-general-LeeAnn: if i have such a long period of time with technically no one to work for or rate me
Sun Dec 7 19:37:08 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Somebody has got to pick up the supervisor role. Maybe in the Bn S-4 shop?
Sun Dec 7 19:37:15 2003-general-PAC Rat: or even excellent performance too SGT Spoon
Sun Dec 7 19:37:20 2003-general-GT_Bill: Don't worry, I didn't even spell my name right . I'm reding LeeAnn's problem, but I don't think I can contribute any advice for lack of experience...I'll just watch for a minute
Sun Dec 7 19:37:28 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Wow...did I butcher that spelling....I need to slow down a touch..
Sun Dec 7 19:37:33 2003-general-||||||||| compughter just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 19:37:43 2003-general-SGTSpoon: PAC Rat...roger....same deal
Sun Dec 7 19:38:01 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Greeting compughter, join the discussion
Sun Dec 7 19:38:07 2003-general-LeeAnn: hi there comp
Sun Dec 7 19:38:21 2003-general-||||||||| Admin: Dan_E notes the topic is Promotions
Sun Dec 7 19:38:23 2003-general-compughter: hello all
Sun Dec 7 19:38:34 2003-general-PAC Rat: morning comp
Sun Dec 7 19:38:43 2003-general-GT_Bill: welcome
Sun Dec 7 19:38:54 2003-general-SGTSpoon: howdy
Sun Dec 7 19:39:04 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Guess we are at about 6-7 users in here right now.
Sun Dec 7 19:39:13 2003-general-compughter: what's the questioning?
Sun Dec 7 19:39:34 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: A few lurking and GT_Bill is just watching
Sun Dec 7 19:39:45 2003-general-SGTSpoon: This is the first chance I've had to sit down and just type for a few in a couple weeks...
Sun Dec 7 19:39:58 2003-general-compughter: hooah!
Sun Dec 7 19:39:58 2003-general-PAC Rat: why is NCOER's counseling important in deciding if a soldier is ready for promotion?
Sun Dec 7 19:40:00 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: We were talking the importance of NCOER in predicting promotion potential
Sun Dec 7 19:40:06 2003-general-LeeAnn: are you germany sgt spoon?
Sun Dec 7 19:40:22 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Yes....Schweinfurt
Sun Dec 7 19:40:24 2003-private-||||||||| Admin: Dan_E just entered this channel.
Sun Dec 7 19:40:27 2003-standby-||||||||| Admin: Dan_E just entered this channel.
Sun Dec 7 19:40:30 2003-general-||||||||| Admin: Dan_E just entered this channel.
Sun Dec 7 19:40:41 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Pigtown. Conn or Ledward?
Sun Dec 7 19:40:52 2003-general-LeeAnn: never heard of that one where is it near
Sun Dec 7 19:41:00 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Conn...Quarterhorse
Sun Dec 7 19:41:08 2003-general-LeeAnn: oic
Sun Dec 7 19:41:19 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Was Marne Country last time I was there.
Sun Dec 7 19:41:22 2003-general-SGTSpoon: 35 k North of Wurzburg
Sun Dec 7 19:41:28 2003-general-LeeAnn: im dreading going to graff next week im sure its freezing up there by now
Sun Dec 7 19:41:59 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Roger...3d ID gone...1st ID Reflagged from Riley..moved here
Sun Dec 7 19:42:01 2003-general-compughter: RGR the NCOER is the "key" element to Promotions especially the S/R comments.
Sun Dec 7 19:42:05 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Okay, back on topic
Sun Dec 7 19:43:05 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: NCOERS are only "key" for Centralized boards.
Sun Dec 7 19:43:09 2003-general-LeeAnn: well all its been nice chatting gotta get rdy for tomorrow and take my butt to bed! Night all
Sun Dec 7 19:43:10 2003-general-compughter: 2 blocks in performance and 1 block in promtion good or bad?
Sun Dec 7 19:43:23 2003-general-SGTSpoon: Here's a proposal for ya..how about we do away with the bullet comment system for Sr Raters and put in a narrative instead? Ithink it would be much more accurate..
Sun Dec 7 19:43:28 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: And once selected for CSM, they are only good for QMP boards
Sun Dec 7 19:43:41 2003-general-||||||||| LeeAnn just logged off.
Sun Dec 7 19:43:48 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: C-ya LeeAnn, thanks for coming out
Sun Dec 7 19:44:01 2003-general-SGTSpoon: And a Sr Rater could be much more performance specific on an individual
Sun Dec 7 19:44:15 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: 2 and 1 is relative. MOS/CMF dependant
Sun Dec 7 19:44:33 2003-general-PAC Rat: Only if they directly knew whom they were rating..
Sun Dec 7 19:44:36 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Narrative is good, but not sure much would change....
Sun Dec 7 19:44:40 2003-general-||||||||| joe.baxter just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 19:44:49 2003-general-compughter: rgr just checking got an NCO upset with 2 blocks
Sun Dec 7 19:45:06 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: 14Howdy Joe., join the discussion. Topic is Promotion System
Sun Dec 7 19:45:28 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: If you earn it, it is up to COC to report it
Sun Dec 7 19:45:29 2003-general-PAC Rat: our unit covers 4 states... so kinda hard for some of the S/r's to know their soldiers
Sun Dec 7 19:46:17 2003-general-joe.baxter: anyont know were i can find an fm on pftp
Sun Dec 7 19:46:18 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: PAC points out another trend I have seen, raters "recommending" to S/R what the S/R portion should be.
Sun Dec 7 19:46:27 2003-general-SGTSpoon: oops.gotta go...thanks all...
Sun Dec 7 19:46:41 2003-general-||||||||| SGTSpoon just logged off.
Sun Dec 7 19:46:41 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: PFTP?
Sun Dec 7 19:46:46 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: C-ya Spoon
Sun Dec 7 19:47:16 2003-general-GT_Bill: I was going to write something about the SGT-SSG promotion points system, does anyone else think it is not an accurate way to determine who should be promoted? I just wish I had time to put some thought into solutions.
Sun Dec 7 19:47:25 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Joe, a bit more specific, I am a bit slow today.
Sun Dec 7 19:48:03 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Bill, I think that the system needs to be relooked. We have not really done a good scrub of the process, especially the board, in years.
Sun Dec 7 19:48:13 2003-general-PAC Rat: brb
Sun Dec 7 19:48:54 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I think the Commanders Points on 3355 is useless anymore, scrap it.
Sun Dec 7 19:49:50 2003-general-compughter: the semi-centr system is a bit fluid in my opinion. Some are making the grade a little too early?Cdr points are a give me.
Sun Dec 7 19:50:41 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: What is too early? I see PFCs today as good as some SGTs. I dont think you can put too much of a time limit on it, it is individual based.
Sun Dec 7 19:51:36 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Joe.Baxter, you find what you are looking for?
Sun Dec 7 19:51:44 2003-general-compughter: u r right on that, but we seem to be pushing babies to walk before they can crawl.
Sun Dec 7 19:51:52 2003-general-PAC Rat: I agree CSM.. I see some "questionable Soldiers" get 140 from their Commander
Sun Dec 7 19:52:14 2003-general-PAC Rat: or 150 too
Sun Dec 7 19:52:23 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I disagree on pushing, if the FLL does his job. And that is to counsel
Sun Dec 7 19:52:31 2003-general-GT_Bill: Yes CSM. I just don't think that actual job performance is factored into the equation fairly,...while marksmanship gets such a big chunk, and then there is that whole deal with correspondence courses, I don't think everyone plays the game fairly.
Sun Dec 7 19:53:07 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: How can you cheat the system?
Sun Dec 7 19:53:19 2003-general-PAC Rat: But then SGT Bill you get right back into the FLL's putting high marks on soldiers that are quite to that level.
Sun Dec 7 19:53:33 2003-general-PAC Rat: aren't quite..
Sun Dec 7 19:53:42 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: If you recommend someone for promotion, why not give the MAX on Cdr Points? If they are not top notch, dont recommend, eh?
Sun Dec 7 19:54:49 2003-general-GT_Bill: Soldiers cheat by trading Correspondence couses and not actually doing them, it happens...
Sun Dec 7 19:55:12 2003-general-||||||||| SPC Diaz just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 19:55:16 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Yeah, I could see that happening.
Sun Dec 7 19:55:23 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Greetings SPC Diaz, welcome
Sun Dec 7 19:55:33 2003-general-PAC Rat: it goes back to the NCO padding his Eval again.. if he can get his soldiers through a board, ready or not, the that FLL gets a 1 on his next NCOER
Sun Dec 7 19:55:49 2003-general-GT_Bill: they cheat themselves that is.
Sun Dec 7 19:55:55 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: No way! A one for doing his job?
Sun Dec 7 19:56:15 2003-general-PAC Rat: for something like o mentoring x # of SOldiers to the SGT/SSG Promotion board
Sun Dec 7 19:56:32 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I owuld give him a needs improvement of he didn't get his soldier through the board.
Sun Dec 7 19:56:37 2003-general-compughter: what happened? we dropped off?
Sun Dec 7 19:56:58 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Just hit the Send button when that heppens. It means you are idle too long
Sun Dec 7 19:57:02 2003-general-PAC Rat: I'm refering to those that push their soldiers through when the Soldier isn't ready
Sun Dec 7 19:57:17 2003-general-GT_Bill: Hey, I know soldiers who get 1's for maintaining 100% accountability of their equipment. Isn't that your job?
Sun Dec 7 19:57:32 2003-general-GT_Bill: er... excellents
Sun Dec 7 19:57:43 2003-general-PAC Rat: and then have the soldier drop out of PLDC for failing a perishable skill that the team should have been training on
Sun Dec 7 19:57:44 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: If you mean they "trained and prepared" then that is noteworthy, but hardly a 1 block
Sun Dec 7 19:58:36 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: What if he would have maintained 99%, he would get a Statement of Charges or Survey! Yeah, it is your job. Your unit failed on my point #2, no senior NCO oversighht.
Sun Dec 7 19:59:07 2003-general-GT_Bill: hee hee.
Sun Dec 7 19:59:14 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: So if he got a 1 block for sending to the board, did he get a needs improvement on leadership for his troop failing PLDC?
Sun Dec 7 20:00:03 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Goes back to my point #1, untrained rater/SR.
Sun Dec 7 20:00:04 2003-general-PAC Rat: sure didn't.
Sun Dec 7 20:00:21 2003-general-compughter: ok i'm seeing a trend to push soldiers to the board early .Again I am not against the fast burners. SMA Jack Tilley was a fast burner?
Sun Dec 7 20:00:55 2003-general-||||||||| SPC Diaz just logged off.
Sun Dec 7 20:01:24 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Someone has to hold people accountable, that is the problem. We dont need more tests. You think people padding on Correspondence tests, just wait until they start sharing MOS tests. Go to www.MOStestcheat.com
Sun Dec 7 20:01:26 2003-general-PAC Rat: How do we keep that from happening though, the lack of trained rater's and Sr's these are the future PSGs 1SGs, and CSMs
Sun Dec 7 20:01:52 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: SMA Tilley is a Vietnam vet, surely not a fast burner.
Sun Dec 7 20:01:58 2003-general-GT_Bill: Some young NCO's feel pressured by thier Chain to send them , even if not ready. Especially when there are NCO shortages.
Sun Dec 7 20:02:56 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: SMA(D) Preston will probably be called a fast-burner, but it is all relative. 1st SMA was a fast burner, too
Sun Dec 7 20:03:04 2003-general-compughter: didn't he SMA make CSM in 17 years ?
Sun Dec 7 20:03:23 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Bill, I submit that you can push back with counseling.
Sun Dec 7 20:03:43 2003-general-GT_Bill: Roger that. It works.
Sun Dec 7 20:04:45 2003-general-PAC Rat: but, CSM how do we break the "afraid to counsel" or "lack of counsel" mold, directly hold the FLL's responsible, and review counseling packets to ensure it was done?
Sun Dec 7 20:05:18 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: If you get a moment, read my article on promotions in the NCO Journal
Sun Dec 7 20:05:23 2003-general-compughter: Dan , NCOs must be taught how to counsel. i think some of get writers cramp or just plain ignorant to the way to do it
Sun Dec 7 20:05:27 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: 17 years? Hmmm, not sure
Sun Dec 7 20:06:07 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Ignorant....lazy, no confidence....lack of mentor from PSGs....no oversight by higher....keep going?
Sun Dec 7 20:07:14 2003-general-compughter: so many tools that teach but we are afraid to research?
Sun Dec 7 20:07:21 2003-general-GT_Bill: Most of the fast burners who make SGM early have the records and experience to back it up. I think making SGM is no small feat with the competition these days. Lots of smart people out here.
Sun Dec 7 20:07:28 2003-general-||||||||| lowstature just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 20:07:39 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Hi lowstature.
Sun Dec 7 20:07:51 2003-general-lowstature: afternoon boss
Sun Dec 7 20:08:08 2003-general-lowstature: sorry I'm late
Sun Dec 7 20:08:14 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: compughter, looks like he has 28 years TIS and according to his bio he became a CSM at 19 years TIS.
Sun Dec 7 20:08:29 2003-general-||||||||| stryker doc just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 20:08:47 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Greetings Stryker_Doc, welcome
Sun Dec 7 20:08:59 2003-general-||||||||| Admin: Dan_E notes the topic for today is promotions
Sun Dec 7 20:09:11 2003-general-stryker doc: thanks dan
Sun Dec 7 20:09:19 2003-general-stryker doc: what is the topic today
Sun Dec 7 20:09:30 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Should the soldier have to "pull" the tools, or should the Army "push?"
Sun Dec 7 20:09:32 2003-general-GT_Bill: Howdy, I'm scooting over to make room
Sun Dec 7 20:09:48 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: We do "just in case" teaching, we teach stuff in NCOES "just in case you might need it."
Sun Dec 7 20:10:32 2003-general-compughter: Soldiers need to pull the tools to counsel the soldiers. i think we need tomandate it on the training schedules though?
Sun Dec 7 20:10:33 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: As I said an hour ago on MOS testing, TRADOC is broke. They are too slow to accomodate the fast pace of transformation and change in the Army
Sun Dec 7 20:10:36 2003-general-GT_Bill: example?
Sun Dec 7 20:11:15 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: How do you teach counseling, by reading FM 22-100? Nope, hands on, by experience
Sun Dec 7 20:11:18 2003-general-stryker doc: i hate to change the subject gentlemen..... can anyone please tell me why we are getting such poorly developed soldiers from basic and ait these days...
Sun Dec 7 20:11:32 2003-general-lowstature: .
Sun Dec 7 20:11:32 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: How about PSG watching SL do a counseling?
Sun Dec 7 20:11:43 2003-general-stryker doc: I have had 6 new soldiers in the past 3 months and all of them but one has reported failing the pt test
Sun Dec 7 20:11:59 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Poor netiquette Doc..
Sun Dec 7 20:12:07 2003-general-PAC Rat: a mini development session
Sun Dec 7 20:12:21 2003-general-stryker doc: lol....sorry dan
Sun Dec 7 20:12:25 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: How can I learn if I dont get feedback?
Sun Dec 7 20:12:32 2003-general-stryker doc: are we talkin about counseling???
Sun Dec 7 20:12:41 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: At the JRTC they use MILES, where is my counseling technique MILES?
Sun Dec 7 20:12:51 2003-general-GT_Bill: The tools are definately there. It would be sad if we actually had to put counseling on the training schedule, especially when the trng schedule is for training,
Sun Dec 7 20:12:52 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Nope, promotion
Sun Dec 7 20:13:25 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: But earlier discussion tied the NCOER as an important element of promotion. Now we are discussing the role of counseling in evalutaing
Sun Dec 7 20:13:40 2003-general-stryker doc: i was fortunate enough to have a psg that actually mentored me
Sun Dec 7 20:13:46 2003-general-GT_Bill: I agree. needs to be more situational instructing.
Sun Dec 7 20:13:51 2003-general-PAC Rat: NCOPD.. a "mock counseling session" with a what you would have done differently?
Sun Dec 7 20:14:00 2003-general-compughter: Conseling needs to be like Motor stables not just during NCOPD once a month. They nedd to set the time aside to go by the numbers like basic. Crawl walk run.
Sun Dec 7 20:14:08 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: That is a point...where is the mentoring at? Dont "tell" but "show"
Sun Dec 7 20:14:44 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Groan. Motor Stables is a terrible way to do it! Another discussion altogether
Sun Dec 7 20:15:06 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Let me do it, tell me how I did. Give me feedback. Let me do it again.
Sun Dec 7 20:15:42 2003-general-lowstature: so the masses are not teaching it? they are just telling NCO's to shoot from the hip?
Sun Dec 7 20:15:44 2003-general-compughter: point well taken, pulling teeth- counseling that is Dental Work!
Sun Dec 7 20:16:09 2003-general-stryker doc: it sucked but i was responsible for counseling everysoldier in the platoon for the longest time....he sat down with me each and everytime and told em what was right and what i could improve on....now counseling is like second nature to me
Sun Dec 7 20:16:15 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Ya'll tell me how it goes at your place?
Sun Dec 7 20:16:23 2003-general-PAC Rat: makes sense.. just like in basic.. the DS showed how to go to the position of attetion repeatedly, until it was second natre
Sun Dec 7 20:16:40 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Doc had a good boss, sad to say the rest of the world is not that way
Sun Dec 7 20:16:43 2003-general-PAC Rat: uhm there is a lack of counseling in my section..
Sun Dec 7 20:17:02 2003-general-lowstature: I was trained on counseling techniques by my supervisors
Sun Dec 7 20:17:15 2003-general-compughter: oce you learn the art of counseling it is fluid and promoting the soldier is more credible.
Sun Dec 7 20:17:16 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Look deeper. Who should counsel and what are thier skills?
Sun Dec 7 20:17:17 2003-general-lowstature: we had mandated counseling by the commander
Sun Dec 7 20:17:24 2003-general-PAC Rat: and I'm a Specialist trying to become a leader too...
Sun Dec 7 20:17:37 2003-general-stryker doc: i ofen see new and not so new nco's struggling to write a simple initial counseling....it sometimes takes 3 to 4 hrs to write one....
Sun Dec 7 20:18:00 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Or the dreaded overprinted counseling statement....<shudder>
Sun Dec 7 20:18:01 2003-general-lowstature: unfortunately the least amount of tng went into writing NCOERs, but the counseling itself was tought
Sun Dec 7 20:19:03 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Where does the leader get the time in the day to do the training?
Sun Dec 7 20:19:07 2003-general-stryker doc: i once reviewed one of my nco's counselings for the month and all of his were the same for 5 different soldiers....keep in mind this was not an initial...it was performance for the month
Sun Dec 7 20:19:26 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Terrible
Sun Dec 7 20:19:31 2003-general-lowstature: definately relative the amount of people you counsel
Sun Dec 7 20:19:33 2003-general-||||||||| SGT ALLEN just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 20:19:42 2003-general-stryker doc: a leader is responsible for making the time in the day for training his soldiers and training for him too
Sun Dec 7 20:19:46 2003-general-lowstature: .
Sun Dec 7 20:19:50 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Hello SGT Allen, join the discussion
Sun Dec 7 20:20:11 2003-general-||||||||| Uboat just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 20:20:15 2003-general-compughter: getting everybody on the same sheet of music on counseling and promotions requires much patience and time to dedicate to each individual. But worth it.
Sun Dec 7 20:20:18 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: True, no doubt.
Sun Dec 7 20:20:25 2003-general-SGT ALLEN: Hello CSM Elder! Go Tigers!
Sun Dec 7 20:20:29 2003-general-Uboat: Hi all.
Sun Dec 7 20:20:35 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Greetings UBoat, join in on the discussion
Sun Dec 7 20:20:38 2003-general-stryker doc: I wish that when i was a young SPC my squad leader would have given me more responsibilities as far as counseling my team...
Sun Dec 7 20:21:11 2003-general-lowstature: always write my outlines for counseling at home, just thought that was why i get paid a little more.. the extra hours even after i am off for the day
Sun Dec 7 20:21:12 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I see us taking time to let PFCs and SPCs give PT, should we do the same for other things?
Sun Dec 7 20:21:16 2003-general-GT_Bill: <---SGT Allen don't rub it in
Sun Dec 7 20:21:28 2003-general-||||||||| chopperdoc just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 20:21:30 2003-general-stryker doc: the best time to learn is in the beginning
Sun Dec 7 20:21:34 2003-general-Uboat: What's the topic?
Sun Dec 7 20:21:53 2003-general-||||||||| Admin: Dan_E notes the topic is Promotions
Sun Dec 7 20:22:07 2003-general-chopperdoc: good afternoon ( here anyway)
Sun Dec 7 20:22:15 2003-general-PAC Rat: wehen in Hawaii I was a Tl for my section.. I counseled them initially on who I was to them, what I would do for them, what they could expect of me, and what I expected of them.. the monthly counselings all were based off of what they did month to month o
Sun Dec 7 20:22:22 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: morphed from importance of NCOERs to the role of counseling
Sun Dec 7 20:22:59 2003-general-compughter: Probably the biggest challenge is the assessment and follow up. So much paper work leaders shudder at maintaining it.
Sun Dec 7 20:23:02 2003-general-stryker doc: oops..yeah lets talk about ncoer's....
Sun Dec 7 20:23:05 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: We are working through how do you develop a subordinate to be a good counselor
Sun Dec 7 20:23:28 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: As long as it relates to promotions
Sun Dec 7 20:23:36 2003-general-lowstature: I think the problem is that there is too much leighway
Sun Dec 7 20:23:37 2003-general-stryker doc: a well organized and well trained leader should not have any problems in maintaining all his counselings
Sun Dec 7 20:23:56 2003-general-lowstature: there should be a chart so everyone is evaluated and counseled the same
Sun Dec 7 20:24:02 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Leeway like how, for the NCOER?
Sun Dec 7 20:24:15 2003-general-GT_Bill: Enjoyed the discussion, my wife needs to counsel me for something.... be back hopefully
Sun Dec 7 20:24:22 2003-general-chopperdoc: A good mentor is always helpful.
Sun Dec 7 20:24:23 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Charts? Ask the Os what they think of the profile system...they HATE it
Sun Dec 7 20:24:37 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: C-ya Bill, come back again
Sun Dec 7 20:24:42 2003-general-lowstature: not open to opinion, you say they are doing well and need one thing, I say they aren't doing well and need to work on several things
Sun Dec 7 20:24:45 2003-general-stryker doc: everyone should be evaluated the same...the only difference is the jobs they perform.....different standards of performance for different mos's
Sun Dec 7 20:24:57 2003-general-||||||||| GT_Bill just logged off.
Sun Dec 7 20:24:58 2003-general-compughter: NCOERS are based on counseling wihout it your NCOER is not as accurate of an assessment
Sun Dec 7 20:25:05 2003-general-lowstature: (not u personally)
Sun Dec 7 20:25:06 2003-general-SGT ALLEN: If that's the topic then here is a bone to chew on: when I Inter state transfered from LA ARNG to VA ARNG I went from top of the promotions list in my MOS to almost last even though I still have more promotion points than anyone in my MOS here in VA.
Sun Dec 7 20:25:12 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: The human element messes up everything!
Sun Dec 7 20:25:14 2003-general-stryker doc: what happened
Sun Dec 7 20:25:26 2003-general-lowstature: definately
Sun Dec 7 20:25:32 2003-general-SGT ALLEN: All because I'm from a different state!
Sun Dec 7 20:25:33 2003-general-||||||||| Uboat just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 20:25:44 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Just hit SEND button if your screen blanks, meens you were idle too long
Sun Dec 7 20:25:51 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Hi again, UBoat
Sun Dec 7 20:25:54 2003-general-chopperdoc: or without counseling to look at, it is much harder to provide accurate ratings, trying to remember what was done or to justify improvement ratings
Sun Dec 7 20:26:02 2003-general-Uboat: That just happened to me.
Sun Dec 7 20:26:21 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: The ARNG promotion systems needs a relook IMHO
Sun Dec 7 20:26:22 2003-general-||||||||| SGT ALLEN just logged off.
Sun Dec 7 20:26:34 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Hit the send button, it comes right back
Sun Dec 7 20:26:37 2003-general-||||||||| SGT ALLEN just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 20:26:43 2003-general-compughter: u r right chopper doc that is why the system is considered unfair?
Sun Dec 7 20:26:53 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Counselings we all agree (so far) is critical
Sun Dec 7 20:26:54 2003-general-chopperdoc: what type of relook??
Sun Dec 7 20:26:55 2003-general-stryker doc: as leaders we must not be afraid to tell our young soldiers or nco's their weaknesses...it is too easy to tell them what they are doing good....I am a firm believer that everyone has room for improvement all the time....even me.
Sun Dec 7 20:27:11 2003-general-lowstature: i think those that hate the charts are those forced to work harder than they want to
Sun Dec 7 20:27:15 2003-general-SGT ALLEN: I totally agree with you CSM!
Sun Dec 7 20:27:16 2003-general-Uboat: Are we talking promotion points system or DA selection?
Sun Dec 7 20:27:28 2003-general-chopperdoc: I don't know about unfair, more like unknowledgable
Sun Dec 7 20:27:32 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: We need to go back to the drawing board on RC promotions, that is all.
Sun Dec 7 20:27:56 2003-general-chopperdoc: What type of criteria would you recommend?
Sun Dec 7 20:28:06 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: SemiCentralized and Centralized
Sun Dec 7 20:28:19 2003-general-chopperdoc: ok, explain that a liitle bit more..
Sun Dec 7 20:28:21 2003-general-stryker doc: chopper you just hit the nail on the head brother.....it is vital for nco's to receive counselings in order to receive a proper ncoer
Sun Dec 7 20:28:46 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: IMHO, a team of SMEs should be gathered and re-look the COE and transformation and see if the promotion polcies of RC are relevant
Sun Dec 7 20:29:11 2003-general-stryker doc: my CSM demands that we counsel our nco's monthly not quarterly....to make sure ncoer's are done without missing anything good or bad
Sun Dec 7 20:29:17 2003-general-chopperdoc: soldiers who don't fully understand the NCOER, will not do it justice. It is usually another paperwork exercise
Sun Dec 7 20:29:19 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: If not, make appropriate changes
Sun Dec 7 20:29:40 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Adding too, sounds fair. Does it help?
Sun Dec 7 20:30:10 2003-general-compughter: i am guilt of not having had a sit down counseling since 1997. My NCOERs are all good though? i know shame on me!
Sun Dec 7 20:30:30 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: compughter, giving or getting?
Sun Dec 7 20:30:40 2003-general-compughter: getting
Sun Dec 7 20:30:46 2003-general-||||||||| SGT ALLEN just logged off.
Sun Dec 7 20:31:27 2003-general-chopperdoc: sit down counseling for you or with your soldiers.
Sun Dec 7 20:31:40 2003-general-stryker doc: yes dan it does help.....it does become a little tedious.....it does that nco justice when the time comes to make his ncoer.....no more skillcrafting....
Sun Dec 7 20:31:54 2003-general-lowstature: got one tis year, first in 5 yrs 8 NCOER's
Sun Dec 7 20:32:10 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Prod your boss, it sometimes helps. Give them a counseling packet and ask if you can "get on their calendar" in a few days to do it.
Sun Dec 7 20:32:25 2003-general-compughter: i have never really needed sit down counseling . My work ethic is work till you drop.
Sun Dec 7 20:32:32 2003-general-chopperdoc: I just got a call from our BDE CSM yesterday AM on where NCOER's are at to BDE.
Sun Dec 7 20:32:56 2003-general-chopperdoc: So, at least they are trying to track turn-in..
Sun Dec 7 20:32:59 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I guess it is okay if you dont have a large section.
Sun Dec 7 20:33:00 2003-general-Uboat: I have to say that the biggest problem I have had in the past is leaders who waited UNTIL the counseling to tell me some things.
Sun Dec 7 20:33:03 2003-general-stryker doc: every nco can't have superiors all the way down....they will never learn from that we need to focus on being honest with them...not just making them look good for a promotion
Sun Dec 7 20:33:53 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Every NCO CAN have max, but only if they earn it.
Sun Dec 7 20:34:07 2003-general-Uboat: This resulted in me being "blindsided" by a few things. As far as I am concerned nothing on your counseling should be a suprise because it should have already been covered.
Sun Dec 7 20:34:13 2003-general-chopperdoc: One of the things that I have tried to institute in leaderbooks is to have a significiant events page in their leaderbook. Then they can note those events (awards, attaboys, oh-s**ts and have them to look upon when NCOER time is due.
Sun Dec 7 20:34:32 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Be truthful. We mentioned the excellence block for maintaining 100% accountability. That is an expectation, not an excellence
Sun Dec 7 20:34:47 2003-general-chopperdoc: Uboat, that is exactly what counseling should be..
Sun Dec 7 20:35:04 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Leaders books, ugh. How many folks carrying around those briefcase leadersbooks in Iraq?
Sun Dec 7 20:35:12 2003-general-chopperdoc: How else can you provide to subordinates what your expectations are.
Sun Dec 7 20:35:16 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: But, a good idea
Sun Dec 7 20:35:21 2003-general-PAC Rat: and then if they do earn all excellents then they need to be moved on to a more challenging role
Sun Dec 7 20:35:22 2003-general-lowstature: they should know that from the start, hense the charts
Sun Dec 7 20:35:49 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I gotta hear more about the charts idea?
Sun Dec 7 20:36:02 2003-general-lowstature: lol
Sun Dec 7 20:36:21 2003-general-compughter: i know counseling is critical to promotion some soldiers are self motivated others are not. But the requirement is there to counsel so we counsel to develop .We can't just assume?
Sun Dec 7 20:36:22 2003-general-chopperdoc: Dan, I don't know about Iraq, but I think it would depend on whats in it. Some stuff I would not use there that I do here, again the old saying a unit ready for inspections, is not combat ready.. or so to speak..
Sun Dec 7 20:36:42 2003-general-lowstature: ok...im done with that one....
Sun Dec 7 20:37:09 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: My point is that our current leaderbook has a good baseline, but we screw it up requiring all kinds of useless stuff.
Sun Dec 7 20:37:13 2003-general-stryker doc: dan i agree every nco can have superiors....but i meant most get them and dont deserve them
Sun Dec 7 20:37:34 2003-general-compughter: i give my soldiers carrer maps and ask them to plot there course and counsel them based off the career map.
Sun Dec 7 20:37:38 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Okay, we agree on that
Sun Dec 7 20:37:59 2003-general-chopperdoc: Yep, my philosophy on leaderbooks is to contain information that will help the FLL take care of his soldiers
Sun Dec 7 20:38:56 2003-general-chopperdoc: Compughter: how do you develop your career maps?
Sun Dec 7 20:39:19 2003-general-lowstature: how bout a requirement that for every promotion you must attend an NCO lead course on counseling, starting when your a PFC?
Sun Dec 7 20:39:33 2003-general-compughter: the career map guage whre they are in relation to the CMF and help them reach milestones . I get them off the CMF web site.
Sun Dec 7 20:39:59 2003-general-chopperdoc: OK, this for AC??
Sun Dec 7 20:40:46 2003-general-chopperdoc: Reason I ask, is to the limited promotion opportunities for some RC components
Sun Dec 7 20:40:48 2003-general-compughter: yes the RC need to do the same thing-career maps work!
Sun Dec 7 20:40:50 2003-general-lowstature: or move the lesson plan from BNCOC to PLDC where it is more detrimental in their career since methods are formed early
Sun Dec 7 20:41:34 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: What do you tell your soldier who is following the map and still does not selected for promotion?
Sun Dec 7 20:42:15 2003-general-chopperdoc: This is where counseling steps in.
Sun Dec 7 20:42:26 2003-general-compughter: I even cross reference other CMF maps and tell them to do some of the thing ie courses they suggest.
Sun Dec 7 20:43:17 2003-general-compughter: SmrtForce training is one of the Army tools that will help career wise. Long term!
Sun Dec 7 20:43:31 2003-general-chopperdoc: If not selected, you inform him of the reasons for nonselect.
Sun Dec 7 20:43:57 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I think the CM have value, but they also cause confusion in the ranks when good people follow them and still do not get selected.
Sun Dec 7 20:44:23 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Works for a few NCO grades, more difficult the higher yu go.
Sun Dec 7 20:44:47 2003-general-chopperdoc: due to what? frustration? lack of understanding the process or an assumption they got shafted??
Sun Dec 7 20:44:48 2003-general-compughter: yes , no everybody will get promoted just cause they check the block. it is timing and need-LUCK?.
Sun Dec 7 20:45:32 2003-general-chopperdoc: You are right that timing does play a part, slots have to come open and you have to be ready when they do.
Sun Dec 7 20:45:39 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: No, a soldier who folows his supervisors counsel, tracks with the road map, does the hard jobs, and still does not get selected.
Sun Dec 7 20:46:30 2003-general-compughter: that soldier needs patience and some Kleenex?
Sun Dec 7 20:46:55 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Until he is sitting in front of you wanting advice.
Sun Dec 7 20:47:05 2003-general-chopperdoc: Are you talking about soldiers who go before selection boards, such as E-8's?
Sun Dec 7 20:47:28 2003-general-compughter: I have experience this several times and counseled them with good results.
Sun Dec 7 20:47:28 2003-general-chopperdoc: I take it that you are discussing AC selection?
Sun Dec 7 20:48:16 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Any Centralized board
Sun Dec 7 20:48:33 2003-general-Uboat: I have to say that sometimes it is a mystery what the DA boards are looking for.
Sun Dec 7 20:48:38 2003-general-compughter: my wife is RC and i help herplot her career as well as other RC soldiers. i went to a RC combined RC 1SG course.
Sun Dec 7 20:48:41 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: RC selections have a whole different process, acknowledged.
Sun Dec 7 20:48:53 2003-general-||||||||| PAC Rat just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 20:49:33 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Many times there are more slots available than people competing. Opposite for AC
Sun Dec 7 20:49:52 2003-general-||||||||| lowstature just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 20:50:04 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Everybody can get promoted in RC, just have multiple MOSs and be willing to travel
Sun Dec 7 20:50:20 2003-general-chopperdoc: I have sat on E-8 selection boards. I would suggest that for a nonselect, that you contact someone on the board and ask for an assessment of their board performance. If you can't get that, I would suggest a rehersal with your local higher NCO's.
Sun Dec 7 20:51:15 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: For which components?
Sun Dec 7 20:51:17 2003-general-Uboat: I have seen guys with nothing but operational assignments (and no college) with nothing but great NCOERs that they earned get passed over for guys who hid out and got a lot of college but not a lot of troop time.
Sun Dec 7 20:51:27 2003-general-compughter: promotions are a tricky fix for soldiers . i was 2 times secondary zone select and declined the SGM twice. so I think they are overall fair.
Sun Dec 7 20:51:29 2003-general-chopperdoc: Use their feedback to improve your board performance/presentation.
Sun Dec 7 20:51:33 2003-general-Uboat: I have also seen the opposite.
Sun Dec 7 20:52:15 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Again, which component you talking about?
Sun Dec 7 20:52:27 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: AR, ARNG, USAR? Each are different
Sun Dec 7 20:52:59 2003-general-chopperdoc: Uboat, again NCOER ratings should be a matter of correctly rating and understanding the NCOER process
Sun Dec 7 20:53:03 2003-general-Uboat: I missed the seven list last time because I had just changed MOS's but I saw soem guys that I knew on it and I was shocked. And I was even more shocked by who was not on it.
Sun Dec 7 20:53:50 2003-general-Uboat: Who WERE on it not who WAS on it sorry.
Sun Dec 7 20:53:50 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Hey, I am just sharing some experience on it.
Sun Dec 7 20:54:18 2003-general-||||||||| lowstature just logged off.
Sun Dec 7 20:54:29 2003-general-chopperdoc: ARNG promotion process is comparitively cut and dried for E-7 and below.
Sun Dec 7 20:54:35 2003-general-compughter: i am signal, in a very lucrative (31S/31T) (satellite communications)MOS outside the Army. So promotions are quick
Sun Dec 7 20:55:02 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: It is all relative, as I said earlier.
Sun Dec 7 20:55:20 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: You cannot compare the 31S/T guys with the 91Ws or the 19Ks.
Sun Dec 7 20:55:38 2003-general-compughter: most soldiers in my MO are SGT in 2 years and SSg in 4
Sun Dec 7 20:56:25 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Just he way it goes...so the challnge is a lot less.
Sun Dec 7 20:56:45 2003-general-Uboat: Most guys in my MOS make E7 quick and then retire as an E7.
Sun Dec 7 20:56:59 2003-general-compughter: no, can't compare but they got lucky with the CMF
Sun Dec 7 20:57:01 2003-general-||||||||| SSGA just PLFed into this chatroom
Sun Dec 7 20:57:11 2003-general-chopperdoc: On the other side of the coin, there are people (RC) who end up staying at rank, to keep the job they have.
Sun Dec 7 20:57:20 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Greetings SSGA, join the discussion. Topic is Promotions
Sun Dec 7 20:57:31 2003-general-compughter: promtions are again based on Army Need!
Sun Dec 7 20:57:47 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: So is location/comfortzone an acceptable policy over up-or-out?
Sun Dec 7 20:58:06 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Do we need 20-year SPCs in the RC?
Sun Dec 7 20:58:47 2003-general-SSGA: I HAVE A QUESTIONS ABOUT LETTER OF REPRIMANDS IN RESTRICTED FICHE, DO THEY MATTER FOE E-7 BOARD
Sun Dec 7 20:59:17 2003-general-chopperdoc: Well how does up and out work with the EPS system. Soldier turns down a promotion, next in line is offered... and so on.
Sun Dec 7 20:59:20 2003-general-compughter: looks like QMP or drawdown to me. if the MOS is not moving you up-push out!
Sun Dec 7 21:00:23 2003-general-compughter: RCP for the SPC and below. Are they in the RC?
Sun Dec 7 21:00:48 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Depends where the LOR is, restricted fiche?
Sun Dec 7 21:00:51 2003-general-Uboat: I am told that your restricted fisch can contain one item. A second item that goes into it will "bump" the first item out and so on. If the board sees someting in your file then they know that someting else is in your restricted fisch.
Sun Dec 7 21:01:01 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Sorry, I guess I did not see the question.
Sun Dec 7 21:01:45 2003-general-Uboat: I could be wrong but that is what I was told.
Sun Dec 7 21:02:26 2003-general-chopperdoc: Example, I have an E-5 crewchief (67T), loves the job he has crewing, probably is on of the most knowlageable soldiers on the Hawk. Doesn't want to be a TI, as career progression would state so he remains a subject matter expert at a Hawk crewchief
Sun Dec 7 21:02:32 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: I never heard about "bumping" out of the fiche
Sun Dec 7 21:02:36 2003-general-SSGA: OK ON E-7 PROMOTIONS DO THE RESTRICTED FICHE MATTER IF U HAVE A LETTER OF REPRIMAND IN IT DO THEY CHECK IT
Sun Dec 7 21:03:10 2003-general-compughter: all, got to go , good discussion: perhaps the DA promtions branch SGM will join us in the future?
Sun Dec 7 21:03:17 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Sheesh, I would hope someione would check it, I would hate to see an NCO get a reprimand and then be promoted.
Sun Dec 7 21:03:18 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: But unlikely
Sun Dec 7 21:03:38 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Invite him, we can facilitae him
Sun Dec 7 21:03:56 2003-general-Uboat: They cannot look into your restricted fisch. Or so I am told.
Sun Dec 7 21:04:00 2003-general-compughter: keep that warrior ethos alive!
Sun Dec 7 21:04:09 2003-general-||||||||| compughter just logged off.
Sun Dec 7 21:04:33 2003-general-SSGA: OK IT WAS FOR A DUI IN 1991
Sun Dec 7 21:04:38 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: They dont look until E-9 selection board.
Sun Dec 7 21:05:20 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Here is what the JAGnet says: "Promotion and other selection boards ordinarily examine only the performance fiche. Thus, transfer to the restricted fiche benefits the career soldier. "
Sun Dec 7 21:07:05 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: Got quite, eh?
Sun Dec 7 21:07:17 2003-general-Uboat: Anybody else here have the problem where one day AKO has all of your NCOERs and the next you get a call from PAC saying that you have no NCOERs in the system?
Sun Dec 7 21:08:05 2003-general-Admin: Dan_E: If AKO has it, print them off and give to your PAC. Easy.
Sun Dec 7 21:08:08 2003-general-Uboat: I am now digging for NCOERs that I got years ago.
Sun Dec 7 21:08:56 2003-general-Uboat: That's the thing. When I go to AKO they show up as being there but when you try to view them they are now blank.
Sun Dec 7 21:09:22 2003-general-Uboat: Some kind of file corruption.
Sun Dec 7 21:09:27 2003-general-chopperdoc: Always maintain a personal file, need to keep this stuff where you can get it.
Sun Dec 7 21:09:32 2003-general-Uboat: I guess.