Sun Aug 18 17:59:39 2002-general-QDNUNDR: what are the strengths, weaknesses and differences of the AC and RC NCOES courses?
Sun Aug 18 17:59:57 2002-general-||||||||| Dan_E announces begin of chat
Sun Aug 18 18:00:23 2002-general-Dan_E: Who can guage it?
Sun Aug 18 18:00:31 2002-general-Dan_E: gauge
Sun Aug 18 18:00:38 2002-general-Pagan: Time is a difference
Sun Aug 18 18:00:58 2002-general-Pagan: otherwise the POI is the same -- they all from USASMA
Sun Aug 18 18:00:59 2002-general-QDNUNDR: There's been some discussion in the Reserve Component Forum about the similarities and differences of the two different NCOES options.
Sun Aug 18 18:01:15 2002-general-Dan_E: Is time a or -?
Sun Aug 18 18:01:25 2002-general-QDNUNDR: You can't really gauge it.
Sun Aug 18 18:01:51 2002-general-Pagan: I think on the RC side time is a major OPTEMPO factor in NCOES
Sun Aug 18 18:01:54 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I think the only way to do so is by the end product...Is the NCO performing to the level expected?
Sun Aug 18 18:01:56 2002-general-Bearcat: True AC has more time I think RC people in general are older and maybee more mature
Sun Aug 18 18:02:13 2002-general-Dan_E: Can you really learn through IDT periods?
Sun Aug 18 18:02:21 2002-general-Bearcat: leads to better discussions?
Sun Aug 18 18:02:36 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Why do we have these two seperate systems. Seperate but equal?
Sun Aug 18 18:02:46 2002-general-lowstature: all I can say is I went to BNCOC 2 yrs ago changing to a different MOS, and I was excited thinking I would learn something, I learned nothing except how to find something in a TM, and the RC was the majority ones that failed the pt test
Sun Aug 18 18:02:56 2002-general-Bearcat: If youstudy the poi between times . Yes
Sun Aug 18 18:02:58 2002-general-Dan_E: We have all been to NCOES and probbaly thought if the time was better mangaed we could graduate sooner
Sun Aug 18 18:03:08 2002-general-Pagan: Because the Army isn't the RC soldiers' bread and butter like it is for the AC soldiers
Sun Aug 18 18:03:14 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Sure they use the same POI but how can a 4 week RC course qualify an NCO the same way a 2 month course qualifies another?
Sun Aug 18 18:03:26 2002-general-Dan_E: TASS lessons are the same for each component
Sun Aug 18 18:04:23 2002-general-Dan_E: ,,
Sun Aug 18 18:05:10 2002-private-||||||||| Dan_E just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:05:13 2002-general-||||||||| Dan_E just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:05:14 2002-general-QDNUNDR: There's been some discussion of AGR soldiers attending RC NCOES. Some suggest that they shouldn't becasue they are active duty. any thoughts?
Sun Aug 18 18:05:54 2002-general-Pagan: my only question when that came up was whatever happened to that Army of One concept
Sun Aug 18 18:06:13 2002-general-Pagan: or was it One Army. . . I forget
Sun Aug 18 18:07:15 2002-general-Dan_E: Now it is "The Army"
Sun Aug 18 18:07:37 2002-general-||||||||| QDNUNDR Don't we have a system now that is really two seperate systems joined by a POI but seperated by a time disparity?
Sun Aug 18 18:09:03 2002-general-Dan_E: Time is a condition, not a standard
Sun Aug 18 18:09:13 2002-general-Dan_E: In all we do, it is only the conditions that change
Sun Aug 18 18:10:13 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I agree. So why are AC NCOs required to attend a longer course?
Sun Aug 18 18:10:38 2002-general-QDNUNDR: OR, why are RC NCOs attending shorter courses?
Sun Aug 18 18:10:45 2002-general-Dan_E: I believe that was a topic of the NCO panel results
Sun Aug 18 18:11:30 2002-general-QDNUNDR: any resolutions?
Sun Aug 18 18:11:56 2002-general-Pagan: I don't know about the AC folks, but the RC folks attend because they're only "required" to do 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks in the summer
Sun Aug 18 18:12:21 2002-general-Pagan: somtimes more, but never less
Sun Aug 18 18:12:31 2002-general-Dan_E: The panel mainly identified problems and gave some recommendations.
Sun Aug 18 18:13:04 2002-general-||||||||| csm1daniels just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 18:13:07 2002-general-||||||||| QDNUNDR Did we lose everyone?
Sun Aug 18 18:13:22 2002-general-QDNUNDR: ok, I'm back
Sun Aug 18 18:13:35 2002-general-Pagan: waving hands
Sun Aug 18 18:13:50 2002-general-lowstature: ....
Sun Aug 18 18:13:52 2002-general-csm1daniels: temporarily, but back now
Sun Aug 18 18:13:56 2002-general-Dan_E: Kinda quiet
Sun Aug 18 18:14:07 2002-general-Dan_E: Who picked this topic, anyway? <laugh>
Sun Aug 18 18:14:17 2002-general-Dan_E: As I mentioned, who is qualified to evaulate?
Sun Aug 18 18:14:20 2002-general-Pagan: kinda -- you could hear a pin drop
Sun Aug 18 18:14:29 2002-general-||||||||| csm1daniels just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 18:14:48 2002-general-||||||||| Dan_E is looking around the room.
Sun Aug 18 18:14:49 2002-general-Pagan: I think the FLL is most qualified
Sun Aug 18 18:15:09 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I don't think you can call us an "Army" and then have seperate school requirements. Can you?
Sun Aug 18 18:15:17 2002-general-Pagan: isn't it the final destination that counts and not necessarily the journey to get there
Sun Aug 18 18:15:36 2002-general-Pagan: the requirements are not separate -- the time is
Sun Aug 18 18:15:36 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Good Point Pagan!
Sun Aug 18 18:15:51 2002-general-Pagan: standards are the same
Sun Aug 18 18:15:55 2002-general-Dan_E: FLL?
Sun Aug 18 18:16:07 2002-general-Pagan: fist line leader
Sun Aug 18 18:16:17 2002-general-Pagan: first not fist -- type-o
Sun Aug 18 18:16:39 2002-general-Pagan: the hand is quicker than the eye
Sun Aug 18 18:16:56 2002-general-Dan_E: ok
Sun Aug 18 18:17:13 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Does the END really justify the MEANS when it comes to NCOES though?
Sun Aug 18 18:17:28 2002-general-Dan_E: If you meant the FLL is best qualified to compare NCOES, I disagree.
Sun Aug 18 18:18:03 2002-general-Dan_E: I would say to be qualified you must attend both. We are looking in to the fishbowl having never swam in it.
Sun Aug 18 18:18:05 2002-general-QDNUNDR: How can you evaluate the two systems if you haven't been there?
Sun Aug 18 18:18:44 2002-general-csm1daniels: it becomes a matter of reality. Reserve Forces personnel usually cannot affordthe time to attend the longer courses. They must "pay the rent and buy the groceries." I they attend the longer courses they may not have their job when they graduate.
Sun Aug 18 18:18:49 2002-general-Bearcat: to compare you would have to attend both AC & RC at the same leve
Sun Aug 18 18:18:54 2002-general-Pagan: somebody asked who is best qualified to judge the result -- I think the first line leader is
Sun Aug 18 18:19:40 2002-general-QDNUNDR: CSM daniels, I believe that is what is holding the Army back from creating ONE common system.
Sun Aug 18 18:19:55 2002-general-csm1daniels: I have been exposed to both forces and most of the time the reserve components can do the job.
Sun Aug 18 18:19:58 2002-general-QDNUNDR: THAT and the fact that they don't want to cut their courses down to the RC timeframe.
Sun Aug 18 18:19:59 2002-general-Pagan: but if the POI, standards, and end result are the same then what does it matter anyway in the long run
Sun Aug 18 18:20:38 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Cutting the AC course timeframe down is really the only direction the Army can go to make this a ONE ARMY system.
Sun Aug 18 18:20:50 2002-general-QDNUNDR: The RC just cannot move the other direction.
Sun Aug 18 18:21:23 2002-general-lowstature: if all that is the case why don't they make it a controlle correspondance course, where only the test is supervised?
Sun Aug 18 18:21:30 2002-general-Pagan: so does that mean that all AC courses are going to have to be "cut down" too and not just the NCOES ones
Sun Aug 18 18:21:39 2002-general-Pagan: there's a much broader scope in that statement than you realize
Sun Aug 18 18:22:36 2002-general-Pagan: for example the EOA course for AC folks is 16 weeks long, but for RC it's only 21 days
Sun Aug 18 18:22:50 2002-general-csm1daniels: lowstature: there is invauable experience gained from being in residence.
Sun Aug 18 18:22:50 2002-general-Pagan: same cirriculum, less detail
Sun Aug 18 18:23:37 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Well, when you talk about "qualified" soldiers in the context of pulling soldiers out of units to attend school. How can the Army say that RC soldiers are just as qualified but in the same breath, justify keeping AC soldiers out of thier units twice
Sun Aug 18 18:23:46 2002-general-Dan_E: We need consider what the future will bring.
Sun Aug 18 18:23:49 2002-general-QDNUNDR: as long to get the same qualification?
Sun Aug 18 18:24:09 2002-general-Dan_E: Going to NCOES will be turning on a computer and logging in to the NCOA
Sun Aug 18 18:24:11 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Dan, such as?
Sun Aug 18 18:24:28 2002-general-Dan_E: Or plopping in a CDRom
Sun Aug 18 18:24:46 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I think there are portions of every course that you could do that in BUT you still need that interaction in person.
Sun Aug 18 18:24:47 2002-general-Pagan: that's the wave of the future -- no more TDY expenses for our Uncle
Sun Aug 18 18:24:56 2002-general-Dan_E: We will interact via telecommo and chat like this to our SGLs.
Sun Aug 18 18:25:05 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I know I've learned more on breaks at BNCOC and ANCOC than I EVER did in the classes!
Sun Aug 18 18:25:21 2002-general-Dan_E: My "base group" will all be linked via modem.
Sun Aug 18 18:25:42 2002-general-Pagan: the Battle Staff course at Fort McCoy is that -- there's an online prerequisite you MUST complete before actually attending in residence
Sun Aug 18 18:25:46 2002-general-csm1daniels: good idea Dan, but you loose the peresonal mcontact and experiencs.
Sun Aug 18 18:25:47 2002-general-Dan_E: And my instructor will be a popup window on the screen. He could
Sun Aug 18 18:25:52 2002-general-Dan_E: be live or recorded.
Sun Aug 18 18:25:56 2002-general-QDNUNDR: You won't get that via teleconference schools.
Sun Aug 18 18:26:12 2002-general-Dan_E: I agree about the loss, but it is here and is coming
Sun Aug 18 18:26:18 2002-general-Pagan: hey, who turned out the lights
Sun Aug 18 18:26:33 2002-general-Pagan: oh, there they go (got a blank screen there for a minute)
Sun Aug 18 18:26:44 2002-general-Dan_E: 1SGC and BSNCO. Yeah it is not NCOES, but it is spreading
Sun Aug 18 18:26:44 2002-general-lowstature: I heard it was going to a 2 week common core at current duty station, then online or via cd rom for the rest......
Sun Aug 18 18:27:02 2002-general-Dan_E: I developed and thought the 1st DL ANCOC in Texas a few years back.
Sun Aug 18 18:27:21 2002-general-Dan_E: <taught>
Sun Aug 18 18:27:25 2002-general-csm1daniels: agreed about the time being here but maybe we could have a combination. A shorter residence requirement.
Sun Aug 18 18:27:48 2002-general-Dan_E: That is anothre change. Phased NCOES. PH1 can be taught at any academy, RC or AC
Sun Aug 18 18:27:51 2002-general-QDNUNDR: CSM D, I think that is a good idea
Sun Aug 18 18:27:54 2002-general-Pagan: does any of this DL stuff have anything to do with the G1 keeping up with how many days a soldiers is away from home?
Sun Aug 18 18:28:12 2002-general-Dan_E: PH2 could be CD or internet based, with a PH 3 at the NCOA.
Sun Aug 18 18:28:17 2002-general-QDNUNDR: There would not be the problem for the RC students time availability with that program.
Sun Aug 18 18:28:24 2002-general-Dan_E: PH4 could be a self development module.
Sun Aug 18 18:28:32 2002-general-||||||||| csm1daniels just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 18:28:35 2002-general-Dan_E: Life-long learning is the next evolution
Sun Aug 18 18:28:46 2002-general-csm1daniels: lost you for a minute
Sun Aug 18 18:28:52 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Dan, what's that?
Sun Aug 18 18:28:57 2002-general-Dan_E: You will not only learn in chunks scattered throughout your career...
Sun Aug 18 18:29:11 2002-general-Dan_E: Brad, what is what?
Sun Aug 18 18:29:16 2002-general-||||||||| Bearcat just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 18:29:19 2002-general-Dan_E: LLL?
Sun Aug 18 18:29:35 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I like the DL concept but there still needs to be the inresident portion to TRUELY evaluate the NCO.
Sun Aug 18 18:29:47 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Life-Long learning Dan.
Sun Aug 18 18:30:42 2002-general-Dan_E: It is a bunch of linked events for education.
Sun Aug 18 18:31:08 2002-general-Dan_E: It will include ADL, resident, self development and a host of techniques.
Sun Aug 18 18:31:12 2002-general-QDNUNDR: the USASMA has a self development program for the SMA. How is the completion rate vs the resident course? How will that play out in the BNCOC and ANCOC realms?
Sun Aug 18 18:31:13 2002-general-csm1daniels: I agree. We need to see the NCO live for a true and final evaluation.
Sun Aug 18 18:31:16 2002-general-Pagan: I don't know about anyone else, but half of what I learn at any school comes from my peers and the interaction and bonding with them
Sun Aug 18 18:31:34 2002-general-Dan_E: It is life-cycle management of the soldier-system
Sun Aug 18 18:31:44 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Me TOO Pagan.
Sun Aug 18 18:32:00 2002-general-csm1daniels: me too
Sun Aug 18 18:32:03 2002-general-lowstature: how would they emplace sonmething like that and work in the time required for promotion and eliminate or decrease conditional promotions?
Sun Aug 18 18:32:03 2002-general-||||||||| SSG F just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 18:32:15 2002-general-SSG F: Im back
Sun Aug 18 18:32:17 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Dan, more training in smaller chunks throughout the career instead of 4 BIG courses?
Sun Aug 18 18:32:22 2002-general-Dan_E: No arguement. So how can we replicate that in a digital world you ask?
Sun Aug 18 18:32:30 2002-general-Dan_E: Brad, yes.
Sun Aug 18 18:32:49 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I like that Idea Dan.
Sun Aug 18 18:33:02 2002-general-Dan_E: Some is web based, some is CDbased. Some is on demand and some is live.
Sun Aug 18 18:33:05 2002-general-Pagan: yeah, that's what I wanna know -- I can't slap QDAWG on the back when he says something funny when he's there and I'm here
Sun Aug 18 18:33:34 2002-general-csm1daniels: It sounds like a comprimise that would work Dan. But, it will take a lot of work.
Sun Aug 18 18:33:42 2002-general-Dan_E: Ok, since no one asked, you do it by colocating multiple soldiers at a digital learning center.
Sun Aug 18 18:33:51 2002-private-||||||||| SSG F just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:33:54 2002-general-||||||||| SSG F just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:34:12 2002-general-Dan_E: Think about the savings, not just $$.
Sun Aug 18 18:34:25 2002-general-Pagan: then I think the Army needs more DL centers -- there doesn't seem to be enough in my experience
Sun Aug 18 18:34:32 2002-general-csm1daniels: I can see you have already given this idea some thought Dan, good work.
Sun Aug 18 18:34:38 2002-general-Dan_E: My BNCOC was 3 months long. That is a long time away from my family. <minus stress>
Sun Aug 18 18:34:55 2002-general-Dan_E: I had two budgets <money stress>
Sun Aug 18 18:34:59 2002-general-QDNUNDR: By colocating, you are talking about all the ANCOC students at some post who all need PH3 being in the same room?
Sun Aug 18 18:35:03 2002-general-Pagan: I can picture Dan becoming a consultant later in life
Sun Aug 18 18:35:11 2002-general-Dan_E: I was away from my unit <unit stress>
Sun Aug 18 18:35:12 2002-private-||||||||| SSG F just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:35:13 2002-general-||||||||| SSG F just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:35:23 2002-general-Dan_E: The class really could have been shorter <pain in the a$$>
Sun Aug 18 18:35:35 2002-general-SSG F: All, I actually saw this in action in Vilseck, Germany. The BSNCO course NCOs had a cadre sitting in the back of the room and were learning live video feed from the Sergeant Major's Academy
Sun Aug 18 18:36:00 2002-general-Dan_E: Not me, I am regurgitation what is happening. I am a bit in the know from my former assignment at USASMA as a lesson developer
Sun Aug 18 18:36:25 2002-general-||||||||| JS just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 18:36:40 2002-general-Pagan: Hello, JS.
Sun Aug 18 18:36:43 2002-general-Dan_E: Not only does the Vilsek guys benefit, there were probably 3 other locations tied in to the same course.
Sun Aug 18 18:36:56 2002-general-Dan_E: Greetings JS
Sun Aug 18 18:37:05 2002-general-||||||||| csm1daniels just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 18:37:12 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I know that in my ANCOC course, we did the facilitated learning thing, talked and talked about our experiences as they related to the POI and blew all our war stories long before the time alloted to the lesson plan.
Sun Aug 18 18:37:17 2002-general-Dan_E: The students in the class interacted, for sure.
Sun Aug 18 18:37:17 2002-general-QDNUNDR: short short days
Sun Aug 18 18:37:20 2002-general-QDNUNDR: wasted time
Sun Aug 18 18:37:23 2002-general-JS: HOOAH, Dan and all ... super Sunday in Northern California
Sun Aug 18 18:37:23 2002-general-QDNUNDR: IMHO
Sun Aug 18 18:37:28 2002-general-SSG F: I knew a guy in the course, he said that it was kind of weird at first, but you get used to it.
Sun Aug 18 18:37:37 2002-general-csm1daniels: must be the weather, I keep losing the screen.
Sun Aug 18 18:37:47 2002-general-Pagan: So how do you match up the time zones, Dan?
Sun Aug 18 18:37:58 2002-general-||||||||| csm1daniels just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 18:38:19 2002-general-Dan_E: JS, we are talking about NCOES. Feel free to jump in.
Sun Aug 18 18:38:45 2002-general-Dan_E: Time zones is a biggie, but reverse-cycle training is common
Sun Aug 18 18:39:00 2002-general-Dan_E: Your duty day is a bit reversed.
Sun Aug 18 18:39:02 2002-general-JS: you know how longs it's been since I've done any NCOES? remember I'm out of class 19
Sun Aug 18 18:39:19 2002-general-Dan_E: Of course you probably dont want the guys in korea getting up at 0200...
Sun Aug 18 18:39:22 2002-general-JS: "old soldiers never die" they just hang around and bug you kids
Sun Aug 18 18:39:40 2002-general-||||||||| QDNUNDR So, the future of NCOES lies in some combination of PH1 Common Core, VTC and DL. Perhaps in smaller chunks more evenly dispersed throughout your career?
Sun Aug 18 18:39:41 2002-general-Dan_E: Class 19? Class 53 just started
Sun Aug 18 18:39:46 2002-general-lowstature: lol at 0200
Sun Aug 18 18:39:55 2002-general-JS: i told you i was old...
Sun Aug 18 18:40:16 2002-general-JS: of course i was a 1SG at the time and only 18 years old !!!
Sun Aug 18 18:40:45 2002-general-Dan_E: Life-long learning will include NCOPD, mentoring, civ ed, ACCP, NCOES, etc.
Sun Aug 18 18:41:02 2002-general-csm1daniels: QDNUNDR, Good review, It sounds like a plan.
Sun Aug 18 18:41:10 2002-general-Pagan: Smartforce?
Sun Aug 18 18:41:14 2002-general-Dan_E: The goal would be to achieve AA by SFC, BA by SGM.
Sun Aug 18 18:41:16 2002-private-||||||||| SSG F just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:41:18 2002-general-||||||||| SSG F just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:41:25 2002-general-JS: what's your idea of having the Academy manage all NCOES accross the board?
Sun Aug 18 18:41:32 2002-general-Dan_E: Smartforce is a component.
Sun Aug 18 18:41:44 2002-general-Dan_E: So is eArmyU
Sun Aug 18 18:41:44 2002-general-QDNUNDR: It looks like the directon of NCOES has a bright future!
Sun Aug 18 18:41:48 2002-general-lowstature: ssg f quit playing around lol
Sun Aug 18 18:41:55 2002-general-Dan_E: Which academy?
Sun Aug 18 18:42:17 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I'm sorry to have completed most of my NCOES already! This is going to be great!
Sun Aug 18 18:42:23 2002-general-Dan_E: USASMA will be propnent, brabnchs will manage the life-cycle of their force
Sun Aug 18 18:42:28 2002-general-SSG F: The screen is going blank. I guess I'm being too quiet.
Sun Aug 18 18:42:32 2002-general-JS: NCOES will be expanding to include some other phase of "skill level 5" training -- at least I would hope
Sun Aug 18 18:42:42 2002-general-Dan_E: Tell me about it Brad,
Sun Aug 18 18:42:45 2002-general-Pagan: Branches? Kinda like they manage our careers now?
Sun Aug 18 18:43:02 2002-general-Dan_E: Well, the talk is to add an E-8 component
Sun Aug 18 18:43:13 2002-general-QDNUNDR: is the certifications process going to be incorporated?
Sun Aug 18 18:43:15 2002-general-Dan_E: like a SNCOC
Sun Aug 18 18:43:19 2002-general-JS: Dan, I think that's just around the corner
Sun Aug 18 18:43:29 2002-general-SSG F: One thing that I have noticed is that there is little standardization across the schools...the PLDC at Bragg is different from the PLDC in Graf...
Sun Aug 18 18:43:30 2002-general-JS: exactly like an SNCOC
Sun Aug 18 18:43:41 2002-general-JS: but, of course MOS specific
Sun Aug 18 18:43:43 2002-general-Dan_E: PERSCOM branch manages your career, I meant your regimental type school
Sun Aug 18 18:43:59 2002-general-Pagan: OIC
Sun Aug 18 18:44:19 2002-general-Bearcat: Gotta go I'll be looking for the AAR
Sun Aug 18 18:44:25 2002-general-Dan_E: I predict 1SGC and BSNCOC is about gone.
Sun Aug 18 18:44:29 2002-private-||||||||| SSG F just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:44:31 2002-general-||||||||| SSG F just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:44:36 2002-general-lowstature: L8R Bearcat
Sun Aug 18 18:44:47 2002-general-JS: i think so too...
Sun Aug 18 18:44:58 2002-general-SSG F: I think that a central branch to standardize the schools is a good idea. But then we'd be gettin like the AF; an MOS for everything under the sun
Sun Aug 18 18:45:02 2002-general-Pagan: I've always heard that BSNCOC is a great course -- gruelling, but great
Sun Aug 18 18:45:12 2002-general-SSG F: CU bearcat
Sun Aug 18 18:45:15 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I think the 1SGC needs to be incorporated into the ANCOC POI.
Sun Aug 18 18:45:19 2002-general-Dan_E: Also, SMC will move up. Also, NCOES tied to promotions as we now know it are gone too.
Sun Aug 18 18:45:30 2002-general-Pagan: and how is a 1SG going to learn to be a 1SG without the course -- OJT?
Sun Aug 18 18:45:33 2002-general-QDNUNDR: more of the BSNCO crs as well.
Sun Aug 18 18:45:45 2002-general-Dan_E: Yeah Brad, we are teaching people too late.
Sun Aug 18 18:45:47 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Pagan, just like they learn it now
Sun Aug 18 18:45:57 2002-general-QDNUNDR: when they are a 1SG as and SFC.
Sun Aug 18 18:46:08 2002-general-Dan_E: We do not need to send SFCs to learn how to be a PSG, we need to send SSGs.
Sun Aug 18 18:46:11 2002-general-JS: i think that a "SNCOC" could fillful the requirements that the current 1SG course does. I'd sure hate to lose the CSM D course... I think we still need that... plus,
Sun Aug 18 18:46:17 2002-general-SSG F: I liked CSM P's idea of attending the course before appearing before the board
Sun Aug 18 18:46:42 2002-general-JS: plus, we should have somekind of mentoring for CSM's headed beyond Bn and Bde assignments
Sun Aug 18 18:46:44 2002-general-Dan_E: 1SGC and BSNCO will be poured in to the appropriate NCOES.
Sun Aug 18 18:46:53 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Amen! dan
Sun Aug 18 18:47:12 2002-general-Dan_E: GOs get no more schools, do CSMs at the nominative level need it?
Sun Aug 18 18:47:24 2002-general-JS: i've always liked the idea of "select - train - promote"
Sun Aug 18 18:47:33 2002-general-Dan_E: Maybe we need to revap SMC or CSMC POI instead?
Sun Aug 18 18:47:43 2002-general-JS: Dan, yes, I believe they do. ...
Sun Aug 18 18:47:50 2002-general-lowstature: but most of your job you learn from the experience not the classroom
Sun Aug 18 18:47:56 2002-general-||||||||| QDNUNDR This is GREAT! Our system has a bright future! What else needs to be incorporated that isn't already been talked about?
Sun Aug 18 18:48:04 2002-general-JS: if nothing more that a couple of weeks with some other that have served "up there"
Sun Aug 18 18:48:25 2002-general-Dan_E: Problem is the guys writing SMC POI are glorified 1SGs, not really former SGM./CSM from the field.
Sun Aug 18 18:48:36 2002-general-JS: the GO selects do have that "charm" school...
Sun Aug 18 18:48:57 2002-general-Dan_E: Yeah, and we have CSMC.
Sun Aug 18 18:48:58 2002-general-JS: we should have something that helps us when we move. ...
Sun Aug 18 18:49:28 2002-general-JS: i've got a couple of personal stories that I won't bore this chatroom with, ... but, I sure could ahve used some additional "training"
Sun Aug 18 18:49:39 2002-general-Dan_E: Ask the CSMs in a joint billet, they really need some sort of course.
Sun Aug 18 18:50:12 2002-general-csm1daniels: I agree. something needs to set the CSM apart from other SGMs and CSMs at BN and BDE levels.
Sun Aug 18 18:50:28 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Can't those in Joint billets take the respective services' NCOA courses?
Sun Aug 18 18:50:32 2002-general-JS: CSMC is great for the Bn guys and gals ... i'm thinking more of the CSM's that continue to more up...
Sun Aug 18 18:50:38 2002-general-||||||||| csm1daniels just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 18:50:46 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I know I'm taking the USAF SNCOC right now via DL.
Sun Aug 18 18:50:48 2002-general-Pagan: but by the time you reach E9 aren't you pretty close to retiring?
Sun Aug 18 18:50:51 2002-general-JS: CSM's i don't think can ... but, i'm not sure
Sun Aug 18 18:51:03 2002-general-Dan_E: What type of stuff should we teach?
Sun Aug 18 18:51:17 2002-general-Pagan: "charm" school?
Sun Aug 18 18:51:36 2002-general-JS: we've got some super SGM/CSM's that are selected as early as their 18th year... lot's of time before retiring
Sun Aug 18 18:51:49 2002-general-||||||||| Garfinkel_31R3P just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 18:51:52 2002-general-lowstature: so what you are saying is classroom with peers is important, the course needs to be rewritten by some of the field experts not the "rear D" soldiers, and it needs to be more spiratic and shorter? am I getting this right?
Sun Aug 18 18:51:55 2002-general-Dan_E: And some even earlier these days.
Sun Aug 18 18:52:25 2002-general-JS: Pagan, I think the correct title of the course is General Officer orination... charm school is the "street" term used
Sun Aug 18 18:52:37 2002-general-QDNUNDR: welcome Garfinkel
Sun Aug 18 18:52:56 2002-general-Garfinkel_31R3P: Hey there
Sun Aug 18 18:53:00 2002-general-JS: Dan, much better soldiers than I ever was... LOL
Sun Aug 18 18:53:02 2002-general-Pagan: so I'm confused -- a CSM's job is to take care of his troops (or ensure that) and his cdr, what could she get from a school that she hasn't gotten all her career?
Sun Aug 18 18:53:10 2002-general-Dan_E: Not saying sporadic, but sustained.
Sun Aug 18 18:53:26 2002-general-Dan_E: Learning does not only come from the classroom.
Sun Aug 18 18:54:07 2002-general-lowstature: and it needs to be managed by respective branch not by a specific academy or with the help of a academy
Sun Aug 18 18:54:12 2002-private-||||||||| QDNUNDR just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:54:14 2002-general-||||||||| QDNUNDR just entered this channel.
Sun Aug 18 18:54:19 2002-general-Dan_E: Tori, the same arguement that was against a senior NCO course.
Sun Aug 18 18:54:33 2002-general-Pagan: oh
Sun Aug 18 18:54:36 2002-general-Dan_E: Ya know, we did not have the SMC before about 1973.
Sun Aug 18 18:54:45 2002-general-JS: we need the "street" learning, just as much -- perhaps more even, than the classroom ... but, of course we do need to make sure that the classroom education is the right education.
Sun Aug 18 18:55:03 2002-general-Dan_E: We did not have NCO ademies until about 1957 (first reg)
Sun Aug 18 18:55:06 2002-general-SSG F: This is all good in theory, but most use these schools as a reason to get down and boogie.
Sun Aug 18 18:55:12 2002-general-JS: my "top" in Berlin was in class #1 ...
Sun Aug 18 18:55:34 2002-general-Dan_E: There were regimental schools, but you think we have differences now?
Sun Aug 18 18:55:51 2002-general-Pagan: <<<<< is too tired to get down with anything except sleep
Sun Aug 18 18:55:58 2002-general-JS: I know he's going to s**t when I talk to him next and tell him we're at class 53
Sun Aug 18 18:56:05 2002-general-Dan_E: SSG F, that is because we are too lax
Sun Aug 18 18:56:44 2002-general-SSG F: How do we instill discipline without treating them like privates? We ain't robots...
Sun Aug 18 18:56:49 2002-general-Pagan: I don't know that it's because we're too lax as much as it's not taken seriously sometimes
Sun Aug 18 18:56:57 2002-general-Dan_E: Hey all, sorry but I have some stuff to do now. Gotta dash.
Sun Aug 18 18:56:58 2002-general-||||||||| csm1daniels just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 18:57:00 2002-general-QDNUNDR: SSG F, I think that's a symptom of padding the POI with too much time. You don't really have to study all that much to stay on top of the courses. If the course was shorter(time wise) but the poi more compact, the students would be hitting the booksmore
Sun Aug 18 18:57:07 2002-general-Garfinkel_31R3P: I really sad that the only thing I really got from BNCOC is how to landscap
Sun Aug 18 18:57:10 2002-general-lowstature: we the student or we the school or we the whole system?
Sun Aug 18 18:57:12 2002-general-Garfinkel_31R3P: e
Sun Aug 18 18:57:12 2002-general-JS: I only have one complaint about PLDC and so on ... and, I'm ready for any incoming! we need to treat soldiers like soldier and knock off the harrassment
Sun Aug 18 18:57:23 2002-general-Dan_E: ciao
Sun Aug 18 18:57:30 2002-general-QDNUNDR: cya Dan
Sun Aug 18 18:57:34 2002-general-||||||||| Dan_E just logged off.
Sun Aug 18 18:57:42 2002-general-SSG F: The POI in BNCOC included the SOI and the M2...who has those things in their unit anymore?
Sun Aug 18 18:57:50 2002-general-JS: tuff, real and meaningful training is what keeps a soldier and their soldiers alive in the battle, not the othe BS ...
Sun Aug 18 18:58:22 2002-general-Pagan: what's an M2?
Sun Aug 18 18:58:33 2002-general-Pagan: tank?
Sun Aug 18 18:58:36 2002-general-JS: anyone need my email address to fire a live round in my direction?
Sun Aug 18 18:58:42 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I agree SSG F, we need to have a way to update the POIs to respond to the changes in the field more rapidly.
Sun Aug 18 18:58:42 2002-general-lowstature: 50. cal
Sun Aug 18 18:58:56 2002-general-SSG F: M2 machine gun...
Sun Aug 18 18:58:59 2002-general-QDNUNDR: hehe, good point Pagan
Sun Aug 18 18:59:18 2002-general-Pagan: that was one of the points brought up at the Prichett chat
Sun Aug 18 18:59:50 2002-general-SSG F: The thing is, BNCOC was a cake walk. The biggest problem I had was the total lack of professionalism amoung my peers.
Sun Aug 18 19:00:02 2002-general-Pagan: she said they were working on that change
Sun Aug 18 19:00:16 2002-general-QDNUNDR: how long was it SSG F?
Sun Aug 18 19:00:32 2002-general-SSG F: Three months.
Sun Aug 18 19:00:42 2002-general-QDNUNDR: what mos?
Sun Aug 18 19:00:46 2002-general-Pagan: don't get me started Duane -- my honor grad cheated on the final exame (looked over someone's shoulder and started before the gun went off)
Sun Aug 18 19:01:04 2002-general-SSG F: 88M, Motor Transport Operator
Sun Aug 18 19:01:04 2002-general-JS: HOOAH all ... i've got to hit the road. You are all what makes American strong, ... Thanks for your continues service. Take care of each other... ciao
Sun Aug 18 19:01:09 2002-general-csm1daniels: Remember it is not the standard you SET, it is the standard you KEEP! That goes for schools also.
Sun Aug 18 19:01:29 2002-general-QDNUNDR: I know that the AC BNCOC for my MOS is 5.5 months long. The RC course is four phases for a total of 2 months.
Sun Aug 18 19:01:37 2002-general-||||||||| robert458barnes just entered this channel
Sun Aug 18 19:01:39 2002-general-Pagan: bye JS
Sun Aug 18 19:01:45 2002-general-||||||||| SSG F hangs his head in shame for revealing that he's nutin but a truck driver
Sun Aug 18 19:01:47 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Same POI, different time frame.
Sun Aug 18 19:02:04 2002-general-Pagan: trucks are important -- couldn't eat without 'em
Sun Aug 18 19:02:08 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Duane, no shame, nothing happens until something moves!
Sun Aug 18 19:02:30 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Thanks for coming in JS!
Sun Aug 18 19:02:38 2002-general-csm1daniels: This is where we started. See you later.
Sun Aug 18 19:02:41 2002-general-SSG F: Kidding, but the thing is, it's the same old problem...things that we already know.
Sun Aug 18 19:02:53 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Thanks for ocming CSM D
Sun Aug 18 19:03:02 2002-general-lowstature: good day all!!! L8R
Sun Aug 18 19:03:15 2002-general-SSG F: See you later, lowstature..
Sun Aug 18 19:03:23 2002-general-Pagan: gang, I gotta go -- Papi fixed lunch and it's ready
Sun Aug 18 19:03:26 2002-general-csm1daniels: MY pleasure!
Sun Aug 18 19:03:35 2002-general-SSG F: bye CSM D
Sun Aug 18 19:03:36 2002-general-||||||||| csm1daniels just logged off.
Sun Aug 18 19:03:41 2002-general-Pagan: catch you all later
Sun Aug 18 19:03:57 2002-general-SSG F: Bye, Tori.
Sun Aug 18 19:04:04 2002-general-QDNUNDR: cya Tori
Sun Aug 18 19:04:31 2002-general-QDNUNDR: Time for Q to git as well. Gotta go sell a snowmachine.
Sun Aug 18 19:04:49 2002-general-QDNUNDR: *poof*
Sun Aug 18 19:05:03 2002-general-SSG F: I guess everyone's leaving the room. See You Later...
Sun Aug 18 19:05:21 2002-general-||||||||| QDNUNDR just logged off.
Sun Aug 18 19:05:35 2002-general-SSG F: Think I'll stick around in case anyone else shows up...
Sun Aug 18 19:11:21 2002-general-||||||||| robert458barnes just logged off.
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